Talk:Reinhard von Lohengramm

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Contents 1 Name translation 2 Quotes 3 Some Trivia 4 Premier or Prime Minister 5 Real life character concept or inspiration for Reinhard's appearance? 6 Armed Force Terminology

Name translation

I'll be altering this bit in a moment. Here it is (from apocrypha:bi) "[br]Lohengramm is a mistranslation7misspelling of Lohengrin, the epos of Richard Wagner about the grail-knight of the same name."

General rule of thumb: let's try to keep assumptions to an absolute minimum.

Translated literally, "Lohengramm" means, well, nothing. If we remove an "m" we get "Lohen" and "Gram." Meaning, literally, "blazing grief." Which does fit Reinhard's character quite well. HOWEVER, Reinhard is often referred to as the Golden Lion, and his dynasty is called the Golden Lion Dynasty--or in German, Goldenloewe. So it's entirely possible that, rather than "Lowengramm," his name was supposed to be something more like "Loewegram."

Of course, "Loewengram" (useing "oe" short for o w/ umlauts, btw) would be "Sorrowful Lions" (plural). Which, in katakana, would be written exactly the same as Lohengramm. Canary 01:06, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the Löwengram theory pans out, for two reasons:

1. It would only be written the same if you were pronouncing the word the English way, but in German of course the w is a /v/ sound.

2. They've already demonstrated that their preferred transliteration of löwe is ルーヴェ, which is quite different of course from the ローエ in Lohengramm.

I agree with the original assumption. It is of course still an assumption, and should be qualified with a likely or may be, but given the points above and the enormous number of Wagner references in the series i think Ockham's razor is on the side of this one  ♥ kine @ 22:39, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

You have to consider that japanese authors like to do wordplays, so just because there is an alternative meaning it doesn't mean that's what is the real thing. Besides Dynasties have always been named after family/clan names not some coat of arms. The only historical naming that refers to coats of arms was the "war of the roses". Almael 08:19, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Quotes

Two items: 1. Should we impose a limit? (There are an awful lot here, already....) 2. Should we use quotation marks? (I had thought "yes," and I had thought I'd added them, but I don't see them here). Canary 01:12, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Some Trivia

Not sure if this is worth adding to the article itself so I'll leave up to debate here. Reinhard is similar to Alexander The Great in a number of ways;

• Both have blonde hair.
• Had a best friend/lover in the same force.
• Both conquered all of the known world.
• Both died from disease at a young age.
• Both use offensive tactics.

Sioraf 22:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Parallels to Alexander the Great are already mentioned in the article. Scroll down to the background information section at the bottom of the page and you can see it. =) Glacierfairy 00:18, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Premier or Prime Minister

The question is in the title. Was Reinhard the Premier or Prime Minister? I remember they said he held the office of Prime Minister, but in practice someone in a position of absolute power under a Kaiser or Kaiserine is referred to as Premier, or is that another mistranslation? Strayor 23:58, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The term used to refer to Lichtenlade (whose job Reinhard took) is 国務尚書. 国務 means 'state', as in 国務長官 secretary of state (which is how the CA subtitles often — but not always — refer to him), but rather than the typical word for secretary or minister they use more old-fashioned characters that i don't fully understand. It is also seen in the titles shown for all of the high-up Imperial-style government officials throughout the series, including Ehrenberg (軍務尚書), Gerlach (財務尚書), Bruckdorf, Silberberch, Remscheid's ministers-in-exile, and i believe, eventually, Hilde.

Judging by the context, i would probably translate it therefore as 'chief minister', possibly 'Imperial minister', or 'chancellor' (in the sense of Chancellor of the Exchequer, not Chancellor of Germany). Iracundus would have more insight on it i'm sure. So anyway a literal translation is probably something similar to 'minister of state'.

However, in 'Farewell, Distant Memories', the German(-ish) subtitles refer to Lichtenlade as the 'Premierminister', which is indeed the German word for 'prime minister'.

The only subtitles i could find for Reinhard's title after he comes into power (but before he becomes kaiser) are in 'First Battle': 帝国宰相兼帝国最高司令官, imperial Prime Minister and Imperial Supreme Commander. However, i am unsure of the connotations of 宰相. It sounds like, from the Japanese Wikipedia article, that 宰相 has a particular connotation for being subordinate to a monarch, whilst 首相 is perhaps more typically used for the common meaning of 'prime minister' (as in the prime minister of Canada or whatever). It is used to refer to the historical office of Chancellor in China, but not to the Chancellor of Germany for example.

All of this is to say, i do not know which translation to pick.  ♥ kine @ 09:34, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

宰相 (in Chinese at least, not sure whether it translates over to Japanese as well) has strong imperial connotations, since it was the most used title for Prime Ministers (or Chancellors, depending on translation choice) in Imperial China. The term 首相 was invented later in history and is now the preferred term used to translate prime ministers of monarchies today; prime ministers of republics are typically translated as 总理 in Chinese. In the case of Reinhard, I'd say either Prime Minister or Premier could work as a translation for his title. As for Lichtenlade, I am pretty sure he was meant to be just the Minister of State, which made me think of an interesting parallel between this period of the Galactic Empire and Ming Dynasty China, since the position of Chancellor (宰相) was suspended very early during the dynasty since the emperor feared his prime minister gaining too much power and I daresay the same applies to the Empire. So in effect Reinhard was resurrecting an ancient position which no one actually held during the late Goldenbaum Dynasty! Glacierfairy 11:52, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

国務尚書 is derived from names for governmental organizations during Imperial China. I refer you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chancellor_of_Tang_Dynasty and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chancellor_of_China where "In the Tang Dynasty, the government was divided into three departments: the Department of State Affairs (尚書省), the Chancellery (門下省) and the Secretariat (中書省) and the head of each department was generally referred to as the Chancellor". 宰相 is Prime Minister and again has strong Imperial China connotations, and is even higher in power, basically as head of the government and subordinate solely to the emperor. This post was abolished early in the Ming precisely because historically it was a dangerous position as the Prime Minister position was often a position of de facto control of the throne in case of a weak emperor or this was a stepping stone to usurping the throne. Reinhard's title shows the unification of both the civil administration and military powers in one person, clearly giving connotations that he is de facto ruler of the Empire and likely soon to take the throne. Iracundus 12:44, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

The complexities of the Eastern languages are completely lost on me, but thank you for the explanation. But now I feel more confused, of course, as the times I distinctly remember the translations mentioning a Premier, it was always in reference to Lichtenlade, and I was just carrying over the term to use with Reinhard. I am in no way qualified to suggest this, and it is probably stupid that I even say this, but is there any chance that there could be a difference of the terms used in Japanese for Imperial Prime(chief) Minister and an Imperial Prime(chief) Minister that holds all true power within a empire or nation? Strayor 12:47, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Considering that Imperial Japanese government positions were initially a straight copy of Tang dynasty government positions, and that the author is known for his references to Chinese history, I do not think so. The problem is that Western government post translations do not map precisely onto Imperial Chinese government positions, which themselves changed titles at times over the dynasties. The role of 宰相 has also at times been nebulous. The main difference is that 国務尚書 is still lesser to 宰相 which has connotations of full plenipotentiary powers. Now there is one famous exception to this that I can think of offhand which is Li Shimin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Shimin) who held the position of 尚書令 and de facto head of the executive bureau, but he was effectively de facto 宰相 (which did not exist in that form in the Tang) and Crown Prince. Anyway, if I had to do this translation for LOGH, I would put 国務尚書 as Chancellor and 宰相 as Prime Minister, with the implied understanding that the latter is more powerful than the former. Again the difficulty is that this connotation is easily lost on audiences. Iracundus 13:00, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

So, for example, Lichtenlade was Chancellor 国務尚書 until Friedrich IV's death, after which he became Prime Minister 宰相? Does this mean that Reinhard was 尚書令? What would that translation be for that if he was? Strayor 13:08, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Lictenlade remained 国務尚書 even after Friedrich IV's death, possibly to avoid causing even greater uproar beyond that caused by him still staying on in the position. Reinhard was Chief Commander of the Space Fleet. So one was head of the civil administration and the other the head of the military. As far as I can determine there was no 宰相 previously. Reinhard's assumption of that role after removing Lichtenlade is basically even greater consolidation of governmental power into himself as he is taking in name a title even higher than Chancellor. In practice, there may be little difference but it is again in the connotation and title. Reinhard basically over time sheds more and more of the pretense and assumes more of the names associated with real power. Iracundus 13:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

So what would be the translation of 尚書令 and how many positions did that entail? I just am not sure how Reinhard could hold any more power under Catherine. I'm probably not understanding the premise here and for that I apologize, but if 国務尚書 is Chancellor, and 宰相 is Prime Minister, then 尚書令 would be the de facto head of the executive branch of government. So how was Reinhard limited to 宰相, even if it is a position of tremendous power, when he was unchecked by anyone when after he took power? Is that not 尚書令 when you are the monarch in all but name? Strayor 14:01, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

尚書令 was a single position and head of the 尚書省 or executive bureau in Tang dynasty China. This position does not exist in the Galactic Empire. But 尚書令 would have been equivalent roughly to 国務尚書, in technicality. 尚書令 historically became almost equivalent to 宰相 due to a particular incident when the Crown Prince of Tang China took the position and was basically de facto head of government, even though technically this was not the role of the position. In any case, the point later was moot since 尚書令 subsequently became a permanently vacant position for the rest of the dynasty after the Crown Prince became emperor.

The main difference between 国務尚書 and 宰相 is the connotation. 宰相 carries with it more prestige, connotations of almost unlimited power second only to the emperor. 国務尚書 (Lichtenlade's position) might have been functionally been almost the same as Reinhard's later 宰相 position but the title is different and doesn't have the same connotations of stepping stone to taking the throne or rendering the emperor a figurehead. Iracundus 14:14, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Alright. Thanks for walking me through that. I think I understand now. 尚書令 was a Crown Prince that acted and Emperor before being crowned himself? Strayor 14:19, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

尚書令 was a governmental position and head of the executive bureau and was just another bureaucratic job position albeit of high rank. However at the beginning of the Tang dynasty it was given to a Crown Prince, who then by virtue of being Crown Prince, accrued additional power and prestige to that bureaucratic office beyond its original purpose, to the point where it was effectively de facto head of government and equivalent to 宰相 (though 宰相 was not a position that existed in the Tang dynasty). The position grew in power beyond its original bounds due to him being Crown Prince. After he became emperor, that position was left permanently vacant and its former powers broken down and distributed to subordinate posts. The reason for that was due to the position becoming taboo for the rest of the Tang dynasty since it was once occupied by an emperor (even though he was Crown Prince only at the time), nobody else dared or was permitted to occupy it again. So basically this was the result of interaction between a nobility/hereditary power system and a bureaucratic system. For purposes of LOGH though, only 国務尚書 and 宰相 are relevant as 尚書令 does not exist as a position within the Galactic Empire. Iracundus 14:24, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok. So it was a one time only type of position. Thanks again for making the effort to inform me. Strayor 02:23, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Has it ever been resolved which is the more appropriate to use, "Prime Minister" or "Premier"? I think it's used interchangeably in different articles so is there a final call on which is the more appropriate to be utilized? I'm also not sure "prime minister" is the most appropriate of the two versions. It might be more appropriate as "first minister" or "chief minister" if "premier" is not the accepted version. "Prime Minister", though born in 17th century France through Cardinal Richelieu, really came into widespread use through the British usage of it in their parliamentary system. And in German the closest translation Premierminister really was used to refer to foreign officials. The appropriate equivalent if this is based on the Germanic would be "Chancellor". Way more than I meant to go into but I just wondered if there was a uniform answer to the question of if the position should be "Premier" or "Prime Minister". SUPCOM0356 18:25, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

In terms of what's appropriate, i'm not sure, but we do have a canon policy, which states:

As a rule, when a name appears like this in both German and Japanese, the English translation should be derived from the German. This is the case with the above example, which is rendered 'Ministry of War' in English.

So, given the use of German Premierminister, i think we'd have to conclude that, based on our current rules, prime minister is the canonical translation. We can change the rules, but honestly the novel is coming out soon so i wonder if maybe we'll just use what they use  ♥ kine @ 03:28, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

There is actually an earlier discussion in Talk:Otfried III regarding translation of titles and I had proposed that we use "minister" to translate Imperial cabinet positions and "secretary" to translate Alliance cabinet positions. Glacierfairy 04:06, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Makes sense to me! As to the question at hand, if kine's correct, should uses of the term "Premier" be changed to "Prime Minister"? Both are used in various articles which I'm sure could stem from the subs referring to it both ways throughout the series in different episodes. I just think inconsistent use of titles for the same positions makes it confusing as a reader to get a clearer understanding of structure. Hope I'm not sounding like too much of a stickler for minutia (even though I am). SUPCOM0356 23:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, don't worry. I think I'm quite a stickler for minutia myself as well, so I can totally understand what you mean. =) I will try to amend all the instances I can find. Glacierfairy 23:49, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

At episode 36 around 00:30 they say clearly that Lichtenlade took the Prime Minister position first time after a century. The english translation is quite bad at this part though. At episode 34 around 4:46 Mittermeyer calls Lohengramm "saishou kakka" which translates literaly Prime Minister. I can may miss something though. And sorry for the bad english. 03 january 2018

I think the consensus in the above discussion was 国務尚書 is Chancellor and 宰相 is Prime Minister. In episode 36, it says Lichtenlade as 国務尚書 took on the duties of the Prime Minister, but as Acting Prime Minister, not that he actually formally took the title of Prime Minister since that title was taboo. The situation is basically the same as the Tang dynasty example I gave above. The position of 尚書令 in Tang was left unfilled since the title became taboo, but other positions took on the duties of that post, without actually assuming the title. Lohengramm breaking the taboo and formally taking the title, pretty much all but signaled that he was going to take the throne sooner or later. It may all seem like a lot of ceremonial gymnastics but it is similar to how in Lord of the Rings, the Steward of Gondor ruled Gondor in everything except name, without formally assuming the title of King. Iracundus 06:54, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Just listen a little that episode. They clearly say that Lichtenlade became Prime Minister after VI. Friedrich's death. He was indeed acting prime minister before. So Lichtenlade already breaked that taboo before Reinhard. As I said the subtitle is pretty bad at that part. I am not so good at kanjis so I can't really say much about that part though.Dottris 00:27, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Lichtenlade did not quit his position as acting prime minister. The "acting" part is implied and understood without having to repeat it. As definitive evidence, in episode 16 in the original hard coded title subs during Erwin Josef's coronation, Lichtenlade's title remains the same, that of Chancellor not Prime Minister. This episode with its original subs is available on YouTube. Reinhard was the first to break the taboo. Iracundus 16:08, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

A link would be nice for that. I don't really know how to search "original hard coded sub". And then, this was said in episode 36. Even the google translete agrees me. If you tell me how to translete this anything differently I will accept my defeat. 先年リヒテンラーデ凡そ一世紀ぶりに宰相の地位についた物の... https://translate.google.com/?hl=hu#ja/en/%E5%85%88%E5%B9%B4%E3%83%AA%E3%83%92%E3%83%86%E3%83%B3%E3%83%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%87%E5%87%A1%E3%81%9D%E4%B8%80%E4%B8%96%E7%B4%80%E3%81%B6%E3%82%8A%E3%81%AB%E5%AE%B0%E7%9B%B8%E3%81%AE%E5%9C%B0%E4%BD%8D%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%9F%E7%89%A9%E3%81%AE Dottris 20:30, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=plRMckJxYAI&feature=youtu.be at 14:32. Iracundus 01:51, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Well, I have a theory for this. Because this was only the coronation of Erwin Josef, I guess he hasn't any opportunity yet to appoint Lichtenlade. Dottris 05:51, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

After going back and rechecking episode 26, I concede and am changing my opinion. The key part was when Reuenthal formally addressed Lichtenlade as Prime Minister and put him under arrest. So it does seem that sometime after episode 16's coronation and before episode 26, Lichtenlade did formally take the title of Prime Minister. Iracundus 08:23, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Real life character concept or inspiration for Reinhard's appearance?

Speculative but:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0jM8It-SssA/TWKtOVcNy6I/AAAAAAAABpo/ZS7UtIMkJ-E/s1600/bjorn-andresen-50594.jpg

https://sgtr.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/bjorn-andresen11.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B6rn_Andr%C3%A9sen

https://img.4plebs.org/boards/tv/image/1407/14/1407143000105.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27620/3078030-7105145533-Reinh.jpg

"It is said that his appearance as Tadzio in the film influenced many Japanese anime artists (known for their depictions of young, effeminate men), especially Keiko Takemiya." Iracundus 12:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Fascinating. Vympel 14:23, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

An interesting example I stumbled upon was this. The details of their lives and role in history are significantly different, but he does a lot of have physical similarity to Reinhard and also some of his traits (charisma, fighting on the front lines with his troops, etc.) I assume that the anime creators were not aware of this relatively obscure historical figure's existence, but the similarities stuck out to me. —Goldenbaum Loyalist 18:48, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Armed Force Terminology

An explanation for the rollback. Just as the Free Planets Alliance space force is called the Star Fleet, not navy, the Imperial space force is called the Imperial Fleet, not navy. Iracundus 10:33, 21 July 2020 (UTC)