https://gineipaedia.com/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Iracundus&feed=atom&limit=50&target=Iracundus&year=&month=Gineipaedia, the Legend of Galactic Heroes wiki - User contributions [en-gb]2024-03-19T13:12:32ZFrom Gineipaedia, the Legend of Galactic Heroes wikiMediaWiki 1.16.0https://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Welner_AldringenWelner Aldringen2023-02-15T11:34:02Z<p>Iracundus: moved Werner Aldringen to Welner Aldringen over redirect: Reverted as per naming and canon policy</p>
<hr />
<div>{{infobox/character<br />
| image-top = Welner Aldringen (DVD-CA).jpg<br />
| caption-top = Vice Admiral '''Aldringen''' ({{d|799|uc}})<br />
| gender = Male<br />
| affiliation = [[Galactic Empire]]<br />
| rank = {{rank|imperial|admiral|sc}}<br />
| flagship = <br />
| status = <br />
| died = <br />
| actor = [[Īda Michirō]]<br />
}}<br />
'''Welner Aldringen''' (Japanese: '''ウェルナー・アルトリンゲン''') was an [[Galactic Empire|Imperial]] {{rank|imperial|vice admiral|lc}} who first served under [[Siegfried Kircheis]]. He would later on serve under [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] at the [[Battle of Vermilion]]. ({{logh|052}}). He survived the battle and was later on seen as a full admiral during Operation Ragnarok II.<br />
<br />
==Appendices==<br />
===Appearances===<br />
<div class="appear"><br />
*{{logh}}<br />
**{{e|052}}<br />
**{{e|069}}<br />
</div><br />
<br />
===Name variations===<br />
*'''Welner Aldringen''' (<abbr title="Digital Versatile Disc">DVD</abbr> subtitles)<br />
*'''Welner Altringen''' (<abbr title="LaserDisc">LD</abbr> subtitles)<br />
*'''ウェルナー・アルトリンゲン''' (<abbr title="LaserDisc">LD</abbr><span class="lr-1px">/</span><abbr title="Digital Versatile Disc">DVD</abbr> subtitles — Japanese)<br />
*'''Werner Altringen''' (Japanese fan sources)<br />
<br />
===Background information===<br />
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_von_Aldringen Aldringen] was the name of an Austrian soldier and nobleman during the Thirty Years' War.<br />
<br />
{{navbox/soldiers/Empire|collapsed}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Soldiers|Aldringen welner]]<br />
[[Category:Imperial citizens|Aldringen welner]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Werner_AldringenWerner Aldringen2023-02-15T11:34:02Z<p>Iracundus: moved Werner Aldringen to Welner Aldringen over redirect: Reverted as per naming and canon policy</p>
<hr />
<div>#REDIRECT [[Welner Aldringen]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Welner_AldringenWelner Aldringen2023-02-15T11:33:28Z<p>Iracundus: Reverted edits by Mako (talk) to last revision by Heinesse</p>
<hr />
<div>{{infobox/character<br />
| image-top = Welner Aldringen (DVD-CA).jpg<br />
| caption-top = Vice Admiral '''Aldringen''' ({{d|799|uc}})<br />
| gender = Male<br />
| affiliation = [[Galactic Empire]]<br />
| rank = {{rank|imperial|admiral|sc}}<br />
| flagship = <br />
| status = <br />
| died = <br />
| actor = [[Īda Michirō]]<br />
}}<br />
'''Welner Aldringen''' (Japanese: '''ウェルナー・アルトリンゲン''') was an [[Galactic Empire|Imperial]] {{rank|imperial|vice admiral|lc}} who first served under [[Siegfried Kircheis]]. He would later on serve under [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] at the [[Battle of Vermilion]]. ({{logh|052}}). He survived the battle and was later on seen as a full admiral during Operation Ragnarok II.<br />
<br />
==Appendices==<br />
===Appearances===<br />
<div class="appear"><br />
*{{logh}}<br />
**{{e|052}}<br />
**{{e|069}}<br />
</div><br />
<br />
===Name variations===<br />
*'''Welner Aldringen''' (<abbr title="Digital Versatile Disc">DVD</abbr> subtitles)<br />
*'''Welner Altringen''' (<abbr title="LaserDisc">LD</abbr> subtitles)<br />
*'''ウェルナー・アルトリンゲン''' (<abbr title="LaserDisc">LD</abbr><span class="lr-1px">/</span><abbr title="Digital Versatile Disc">DVD</abbr> subtitles — Japanese)<br />
*'''Werner Altringen''' (Japanese fan sources)<br />
<br />
===Background information===<br />
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_von_Aldringen Aldringen] was the name of an Austrian soldier and nobleman during the Thirty Years' War.<br />
<br />
{{navbox/soldiers/Empire|collapsed}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Soldiers|Aldringen welner]]<br />
[[Category:Imperial citizens|Aldringen welner]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:Welner_AldringenTalk:Welner Aldringen2023-02-15T11:32:28Z<p>Iracundus: moved Talk:Werner Aldringen to Talk:Welner Aldringen over redirect: Reverted as per naming and canon precedence policy</p>
<hr />
<div>Unfortunately there's no info on the identity of Aldringen's flagship. Same with Horst Sinzer and Axel von Bülow of the Mittermeyer Fleet (which is frustrating given that both Baylerien and Droisen rate their own flagships) and Waldhauser of the Reuenthal Fleet. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 07:58, 19 December 2011 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:Werner_AldringenTalk:Werner Aldringen2023-02-15T11:32:28Z<p>Iracundus: moved Talk:Werner Aldringen to Talk:Welner Aldringen over redirect: Reverted as per naming and canon precedence policy</p>
<hr />
<div>#REDIRECT [[Talk:Welner Aldringen]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Asadora_ChartianAsadora Chartian2023-02-15T11:31:54Z<p>Iracundus: moved Asadullah Chartian to Asadora Chartian over redirect: Reverted as per naming and canon policy</p>
<hr />
<div>{{cleanup}}<br />
{{infobox/character<br />
| image-top = Chartian.jpg<br />
| caption-top = Commander '''Chartian''' ({{d|799|uc}})<br />
| gender = Male<br />
| affiliation = [[Free Planets Alliance]]<br />
| rank = {{rank|fpa|commander}}<br />
| occupation = ''[[Hyperion]]'' captain<br />
| status =<br />
| died =<br />
| actor =<br />
}}<br />
'''Asadullah Chartian''' (Japanese: '''アサドーラ・シャルチアン''') was an [[Free Planets Alliance|Alliance]] {{rank|fpa|commander|lc}} and captain of the ''[[Hyperion]]''.<br />
<br />
==Appendices==<br />
===Appearances===<br />
<div class="appear"><br />
*{{logh}}<br />
**{{e|049}}<br />
**{{e|051}}<br />
</div><br />
<br />
===Name variations===<br />
*'''Asadora Chartian''' (<abbr title="Digital Versatile Disc">DVD</abbr> subtitles)<br />
*'''Asadullah Chartian''' (<abbr title="LaserDisc">LD</abbr> subtitles)<br />
*'''アサドーラ・シャルチアン''' (<abbr title="LaserDisc">LD</abbr><span class="lr-1px">/</span><abbr title="Digital Versatile Disc">DVD</abbr> subtitles — Japanese)<br />
<br />
{{navbox/soldiers/Alliance|collapsed}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Alliance citizens|Chartian asadora]]<br />
[[Category:Soldiers|Chartian asadora]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Asadullah_ChartianAsadullah Chartian2023-02-15T11:31:54Z<p>Iracundus: moved Asadullah Chartian to Asadora Chartian over redirect: Reverted as per naming and canon policy</p>
<hr />
<div>#REDIRECT [[Asadora Chartian]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Job_TrunichtJob Trunicht2023-01-04T11:26:35Z<p>Iracundus: The veracity of Trunicht's claim is suspect</p>
<hr />
<div>{{infobox/character<br />
| image-top = Truniht_fist.jpg<br />
| caption-top = Supreme Chairman '''Trunicht''' ({{d|798|uc}})<br />
| gender = Male<br />
| affiliation = [[Galactic Empire]]<br />[[Terraism|Terraist Church]] (secret)<br />[[Free Planets Alliance]] (former)<br />
| occupation = Secretary of Defence<br />Supreme Chairman<br />[[Neue Land]] Senior Council Official<br />
| status = Deceased (murder)<br />
| died = {{d|800|uc}}<br />
| actor = [[Ishizuka Unshō]] (deceased)<br />
}}<br />
'''Job Trunicht''' (Japanese: '''ヨブ・トリューニヒト''') was an [[Free Planets Alliance|Alliance]] politician and its penultimate head of state, leading what was widely perceived as an incompetent and corrupt administration, a symbol of the decline of [[Arle Heinessen]]'s legacy. Though democratically elected, Job Trunicht used fear to maintain his power—fear of the [[Galactic Empire]], and fear of his own secret police, the murderous [[Patriotic Knights Corps]]. He was simply out for his own personal power and survival, becoming involved in factional politics and not caring for the future of the Alliance, despite outwardly preaching the opposite. Trunicht's corruption was seen as one of the contributing factors to the fall of the Alliance and democracy to [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]]. After the defeat of the Alliance in [[Operation Ragnarök]] he took responsibility for the defeat and resigned, having surrendered the Alliance because his life was threatened by the Imperial Fleet. Following the complete subjugation of the Alliance during the [[Second Alliance–Imperial War]], Trunicht made dealings with both the [[Terraism|Church of Terra]] and the [[New Galactic Empire]], ultimately betraying all of the factions that he once claimed loyalty to.<br />
<br />
Trunicht was later shot by [[Oskar von Reuenthal]] shortly before the latter's own death, after having insulted Kaiser Reinhard in their conversation. <br />
<br />
==Early career==<br />
Little is known of his background other than that he was said to have served in the [[Free Planets Star Fleet|Alliance Star Fleet]] as an enlisted man, though during his service he did not set foot off of [[Heinessen]]. The fact that he was not sent to the front lines was later omitted from the public record, but it was quite a common story for Alliance politicians and their families. Regardless, by {{d|788|uc}} Job Trunicht, a newly elected member of the National Defence Committee, was known as a "rising star" of Alliance politics. In 9 October {{d|788|uc}} he made a show of attending the private funeral of former [[Alliance]] hero and last surviving member of the [[Year 730 Mafia]], [[Alfred Rosas]]. ({{onw}}, {{sl|07}})<br />
<br />
At some point Trunicht had become involved with the ultranationalist group known as the [[Patriotic Knight Corps]] (PKC), as they would later be answering to him and serving as his administration's black shirts. ({{onw}}; {{logh|010}})<br />
<br />
==Secretary of defence==<br />
[[File:Job Truniht 1.jpg|thumb|200px|left|Defence Secretary Job Trunicht ({{d|795|uc}})]]<br />
Before the coup d'etat, Trunicht sat as the elected Secretary of Defence on the [[High Council]] as part of the [[Royal Sanford|Sanford]] Administration. When he asked [[Yang Wen-li]] what is the best strategy to win a war, Yang simply responded that a war must be won before being fought, and that six times the manpower of the enemy was enough to make up for deficiencies in any tactics. This upset Trunicht, because his own reasons for warfare served his personal gain rather than defeat of the Empire. In retaliation, he requested that Yang Wen-li be sent in the [[2nd Fleet]] to engage Imperial Admiral [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]]. To add insult to injury, he only authorized a force twice the size of the Imperial fleet, rather than six times. Upon the conclusion of Astarte, he spun the defeat as victory for the reason the Alliance fleet survived at all. He later extolled the dead Alliance personnel and gave a speech lionizing their sacrifice. During the speech he was confronted by anti-war activist [[Jessica Edwards]], who criticized him for not serving on the front lines himself while telling others to do so. Later Trunicht berated the leader of the PKC for having caused to much commotion in their attack on Yang Wen-li's home when he had assisted Jessica Edwards, and told them to stand down after Yang visited Trunicht's mansion and asked him to stop them from targeting Edwards. ({{onw}})<br />
<br />
After the fall of [[Iserlohn Fortress]] to the Alliance at the [[Seventh Battle of Iserlohn]] in the spring of {{d|796|uc}}, Trunicht congratulated Yang Wen-li for the success and had him assigned as the commander of Iserlohn. Weeks later, with the [[Iserlohn Corridor]] under Alliance control, he argued in favor for an [[invasion of the Imperial Territory|invasion]] of the [[Galactic Empire]] at the High Council when it was proposed by some ambitious young officers, despite knowing that it would fail, but ultimately voted against the proposal after having argued in favor of it. Trunicht was using it as a way of gaining more power for himself: he would be praised for having the foresight to know that the invasion would not succeed, being the most influential of the three councilors that voted against it (the other two being finance secretary [[João Rebelo]] and human resources secretary [[Huang Rui]]). ({{logh|007|012}})<br />
<br />
When the invasion inevitably did end disastrously with the deaths of over twenty million Alliance soldiers in the autumn of {{d|796|uc}}, the Sanford Administration fell, as he had expected, with Trunicht replacing Sanford as the interim supreme chairman of the High Council. ({{logh|016}})<br />
<br />
==Civil war==<br />
The destruction of the bulk of the Alliance Star Fleet's strength during the invasion, combined with economic and social problems at home, caused disillusionment among the public with the government in general. Reinhard von Lohengramm, having become the Supreme Commander of the [[Imperial Armed Forces|Imperial Fleet]], decided to take advantage of the situation while he was preparing for his own armed confrontation with the Imperial [[nobility]] and sent a disgraced Alliance {{rank|fpa|rear admiral|lc}}, [[Arthur Lynch]], to stir up the discontented elements within the Free Planets Star Fleet. The Trunicht administration agreed to a humanitarian POW exchange of some two million prisoners in January {{d|797|uc}} with the government of [[Klaus von Lichtenlade]] in the Empire (presumably to gain their votes and to appear more humanitarian), which was a ruse used by Lohengramm to get Lynch smuggled into the Alliance. Although Yang Wen-li deduced Reinhard's plan, Trunicht did not. ({{logh|016|017}})<br />
<br />
However, when a coup d'etat did occur on [[Heinessen]] against the Alliance government in the spring of {{d|797|uc}}, Supreme Chairman Trunicht went into hiding, aided by members of the [[Terraism|Terraist Church]]. His exact dealings with the Terraists are unknown, but he later implied that he was using them just as they were trying to use him. Job Trunicht thus managed to evade being detained by the [[National Salvation Military Council]] (NSMC) during their coup, waiting them out as Admiral Yang fought and defeated the putchists. The entire time, one of Trunicht's loyalists, {{rank|fpa|captain}} [[Veigh]], kept the head of state informed of the decisions being made by the NSMC by pretending to be a coup supporter. When Yang liberated Heinessen in late {{d|797|uc}}, Trunicht emerged from hiding to retake his power. ({{logh|019|024}})<br />
<br />
==Fall of the Alliance==<br />
:''"While they extol democracy, in reality, by ignoring laws and rules, they reduce it to a mere formality. It is a cunning but risky way of doing things. Because if the people in power do not respect their own laws, the standards of society itself slacken."''<br />
::—Adrian Rubinsky on the Trunicht Administration<br />
<br />
[[File:Inquiry committee.jpg|thumb|200px|The inquiry committee convened on Trunicht's orders ({{d|798|uc}})]]<br />
As noted by [[Dominion of Fezzan|Fezzan]]i Landesherr [[Adrian Rubinsky]] in January {{d|798|uc}}, the [[Alliance Civil War]] weakened its country, while the Empire was strengthened by its [[Imperial Civil War]]. Thus, unbeknownst to Trunicht, Rubinsky planned to use Fezzan's wealth to support Reinhard von Lohengramm, who emerged as the ''de facto'' dictator of the Empire, and allow him to conquer the Alliance. As part of this the Fezzanis tried to get Admiral Yang summoned to the capital away from Iserlohn so that the Imperial Fleet could take control of it. Rubinsky's secretary [[Rupert Kesserling]] implied to Alliance ambassador on Fezzan, [[Henslow]], that Fezzan was worried that Yang might try to overthrow the Trunicht Administration and implement a military dictatorship. He also said that because of this the Fezzani government was worried about granting the Alliance further loans. Henslow reported this information to Heinessen, where Trunicht—incapable of seeing beyond petty factional politics—took this imagined threat from Yang to his power seriously, exactly as the Fezzanis intended. ({{logh|029}})<br />
<br />
On Iserlohn, Rear Admiral [[Alex Cazerne]], head of logistics, told Yang that he was worried about Trunicht, particularly about his ability to survive political scandals like the civil war and the failed invasion, noting that Yang would only be useful to him as long as the Empire continued to threaten the Alliance. Nonetheless Cazerne believed that Trunicht, who had 'made a deal with the devil', considered Yang an enemy. In March {{d|798|uc}}, Cazerne's fears proved to be correct when the Alliance head of state had his defence secretary, [[Negroponte]], summon Yang to the capital for an inquiry into his actions during the previous year's civil war. ({{logh|029|030}})<br />
<br />
Meanwhile, in the aftermath of the Alliance civil war Trunicht used his authority to further take control of the Free Planets Star Fleet, putting his loyalists into positions of power in the military's joint operations headquarters. The coup attempt by the NSMC had weakened the fleet's ability to confront the government and discredited it in the eyes of the public, allowing the head of state to bring his factional politics and nepotism into its ranks as well. The mass media remained under his government's influence and practiced selective reporting. Furthermore the problems with government corruption, the economy, and social tensions continued unabated. The Free Planets Alliance under Trunicht gradually began ignoring the ideals of democracy, human rights, and civil liberties that [[Arle Heinessen]] and his followers had envisioned when they formed it. Yang Wen-li and his allies, as well as Rubinsky and Kesserling on Fezzan, noted the contrast between the corrupt and incompetent Trunicht Administration in the Alliance, and the seemingly more just government of Reinhard von Lohengramm, which had been implementing extensive reforms in the Empire to sweep away the ''ancien régime'' of the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty|Goldenbaums]] following the defeat of the Imperial high nobility. Yang glumly noted that it seemed to much more 'for the people' than the present Alliance administration. ({{logh|031|032}})<br />
<br />
The inquiry dragged on for days without reaching any sort of conclusion until news arrived on the Alliance capital that [[Geiersburg Fortress]], mobilized using warp engines, had entered the [[Iserlohn Corridor]] and engaged the Alliance defenders there while Yang was gone. Thus Trunicht ordered the committee to be disbanded immediately and shamelessly gave Yang orders to go fight off the Imperial invaders (through defence secretary Negroponte). The head of state then pressured Negroponte to take responsibility for this incident of having the Iserlohn commander summoned away from his post when the Empire attacked, rather than Trunicht himself, and resign—which he did. Trunicht subsequently replaced him as defence secretary with [[Walter Islands]], who had bribed the head of state to obtain a cabinet position. The young admiral, meanwhile, returned to the fortress and was able to destroy Geiersburg, ending the threat of imminent Imperial invasion. ({{logh|032|033|035}})<br />
<br />
[[File:Truniht podium.jpg|200px|left|thumb|Trunicht announcing the formation of a government-in-exile ({{d|798|uc}})]]<br />
With Geiersburg destroyed, the Alliance was saved again from Imperial invasion, albeit temporarily, as Trunicht decided to go along with another Fezzani scheme. The exact dealings behind the scenes are unknown, but Rubinsky was able to persuade Trunicht and his government to take in the abducted child emperor [[Erwin Josef II]], kidnapped by some high nobles and [[Lippstadt League|anti-Reinhard faction]] veterans of the Imperial Civil War. In August of {{d|798|uc}}, Trunicht together with former Imperial ambassador to Fezzan, [[Jochen von Remscheid]], announced the formation of a [[Galactic Empire Legitimate Government|"legitimate" Imperial government-in-exile]] and the Alliance's support for its effort in overthrowing Reinhard von Lohengramm, who Trunicht claimed represented the biggest threat to the Alliance. Its intended goal was to restore the power of the Goldenbaum Dynasty and the old nobility that Reinhard had revoked the privileges of. The fact that Trunicht was willing to collaborate with the Alliance's former enemies, that represented everything that Arle Heinessen and the Free Planets Alliance itself had opposed, in order to restore the traditional ''ancien régime'' over the Imperial people, was seen by Yang and many others as yet another sign of the corruption and decay of the Alliance. Reinhard von Lohengramm responded and essentially declared war on the Alliance for abetting the kidnappers of the emperor. ({{logh|037|038}})<br />
<br />
Even as another Imperial invasion was imminent, Trunicht engaged in his power politics by assigning members of Yang's staff on Iserlohn to other posts, including his adopted son [[Julian Mintz]]—personally appointed by the head of state as a military attaché on Fezzan. Although Admiral Yang had foreseen the Empire's plan to invade the Alliance by using the [[Fezzan Corridor]] instead of Iserlohn, such claims are ignored by the Trunicht Administration and thus the Alliance was completely unprepared for Reinhard's [[Operation Ragnarök]]. It was not until the Imperial annexation of the Dominion of Fezzan in December {{d|798|uc}} that the Alliance government realized what was happening. In the spring of {{d|799|uc}}, when the [[Battle of Vermillion]] was raging, Trunicht surrendered the Alliance when admirals [[Wolfgang Mittermeyer]] and [[Oskar von Reuenthal]] arrived at the defenseless Heinessen. Rather than resist he decided to surrender to save himself, giving Yang Wen-li an order to stand down as well, despite that Yang came close to actually defeating Reinhard von Lohengramm. Yang, a believer in civilian control over the military, obeyed the order despite protests from his subordinates. ({{logh|039|041|044|045|053}})<br />
<br />
==Defection and final months==<br />
[[File:Treaty of Baalat.png|200px|thumb|Trunicht signing the Treaty of Ba'alat with [[Paul von Oberstein]], ending 160 years of war ({{d|799|uc}})]]<br />
Trunicht's life was spared following the Alliance's surrender to the [[Galactic Empire]] thanks to [[Yang Wen-li]]'s direct plea to Reinhard von Lohengramm to not prosecute any high ranking Alliance officials. Trunicht took responsibility for the defeat to the Empire and resigned as Supreme Council Chairman after signing the [[Treaty of Ba'alat]] on behalf of his country on 25 May {{d|799|uc}}, which essentially transformed the Free Planets Alliance into an Imperial client state and ended the [[Alliance–Imperial War]]. Trunicht, in turn, appealed directly to Reinhard hoping to be given a position of authority. Reinhard was disgusted by Trunicht, refusing to meet with him directly, and granted him a small estate on an out-of-the-way Imperial frontier world. Meanwhile in the Alliance, João Rebelo—a critic of the Truincht Administration—had replaced the man as head of state, determined to keep the Alliance independent against the yoke of Imperial subjugation. ({{logh|053|054}}) <br />
<br />
About two months later, Trunicht approached [[Ulrich Kesler]], head of the [[Imperial Military Police]] on [[Odin]], with details of the Terraist's plot to assassinate Reinhard von Lohengramm via Baron [[Heinrich von Kümmel]], a relative of his secretary whom he was visiting. Trunicht's information on the Terraists was vital to the Empire's quick response and subsequent retaliation on the Church's headquarters on [[Terra]]. While it is likely Trunicht hoped to trade that information for political or financial gain, it is unknown whether or not he received any reward for his help. He remained distrusted regardless, though he claimed that he had been forced to cooperate with the Terraists in the past because circumstances had forced him to. Despite this claim, in {{d|800|uc}}, after the Imperial annexation of the Alliance following the [[Second Alliance–Imperial War]] and Trunicht's return to his homeland as a council official in the Imperial [[Neue Land|military government]], a friend of Yang Wen-li spotted Terraist officials entering Trunicht's house on Heinessen. ({{logh|057|086}})<br />
<br />
==Death==<br />
Trunicht later met Oskar von Reuenthal shortly after the defeat of his [[Reuenthal Rebellion|rebellion]]. The two had a short conversation in which Reuenthal described him as a leech that fed off whatever system he happened to be in and Trunicht insulted Kaiser Reinhard, for which the Imperial admiral shot him. ({{logh|098}})<br />
<br />
After his death, it was discovered that Trunicht had claimed his true goal was to bring democratic constitutionalism to the [[New Galactic Empire]], from a confession given by [[Dominique Saint-Pierré]]. Whether this was truly the case is unknown. ({{logh|110}})<br />
<br />
==Appendices==<br />
===Appearances===<br />
<div class="appear"><br />
*{{mciss}} (first appearance)<br />
*{{logh}}<br />
**{{e|003}}<br />
**{{e|006}}<br />
**{{e|012}}<br />
**{{e|017}}<br />
**{{e|024}}<br />
**{{e|029}}<br />
**{{e|031}}<br />
**{{e|032}}<br />
**{{e|038}}<br />
**{{e|039}}<br />
**{{e|053}}<br />
**{{e|054}}<br />
**{{e|057}}<br />
**{{e|090}}<br />
**{{e|098}} (death)<br />
*{{onw}}<br />
*{{sl|07}} (final appearance)<br />
</div><br />
<br />
===Name variations===<br />
*'''Job Trünicht''' (Novels)<br />
*'''Job Truniht''' (<abbr title="LaserDisc">LD</abbr> subtitles)<br />
<br />
[[Category:Alliance citizens|Trunicht job]]<br />
[[Category:Characters from Overture to a New War|Trunicht job]]<br />
[[Category:Imperial citizens|Trunicht job]]<br />
[[Category:Politicians|Trunicht job]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:Military_ranks_of_the_Galactic_EmpireTalk:Military ranks of the Galactic Empire2022-01-08T09:41:34Z<p>Iracundus: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Uniforms==<br />
Just a thought - we need to differentiate between the uniforms of the Goldenbaum military and the uniforms of the Goldenlohen military. It'd be good if we could find some pictures of the bare uniforms to use, but most likely we'll just have to take screenshots from the show.<br />
<br />
A good idea for the Goldenbaums, at least, would be to rely solely on pictures of Reinhard. We see him at pretty much every rank, after all.[[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 14:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I agree, i think ultimately the page should have two tables at the top showing just the insignia for each dynasty, and then next to each rank section we can have a good screenshot of a person of that rank. The FPA one will be that way too (but they'd only have one table for insignia) <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 15:05, 8 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I think we could use screenshots of Reinhard's rank insignia from when he held different ranks and use those as an example of the rank insignia in a table. —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 15:37, 2 October 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::The gallery already contains sketches showing the uniforms and rank insignia of both dynasties. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 21:02, 2 October 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== 'Fleet admiral' to 'grand admiral'? ==<br />
<br />
This change has implications for the entire site, so we should get a consensus first. To clarify, i guess the proposal is that '元帥' becomes 'grand admiral' for the Empire but remains 'fleet admiral' for the Alliance?<br />
<br />
What does everyone think of that? Given the historical context and the German translation used in the OVA, i think it might make sense. But is it too clever? In general i like to be as accurate with names/terms as possible (see [[Walküre]]) but i do worry that it could confuse people if we deviate too much from the common terminology in fan circles. Not sure.<br />
<br />
If everyone likes it, we'll want to commit to it going forward. Ideally i would also run my bot on all the existing pages but i'm not sure if i have it set up any more.<br />
<br />
It does pose a problem for the [[Template:Rank|rank template]] if the names aren't the same for Imperial and Alliance. Currently, the only thing the second (party) field does is determine which 'Military ranks of...' page gets linked. It doesn't contain any logic to render different names for different parties. We will have to either add that logic or require that people only use 'fleet admiral' for Alliance and 'grand admiral' for Imperial — which isn't ideal, i don't want them to have to remember that. The formatted code also needs updated for that template. Since the current code isn't really correct anyway, i'm going to revert it for now, but we can revisit if everyone approves. <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 21:43, 4 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Frankly I am opposed to this change, because Japanese is the source language we are translating from, not German. So '元帥' might very well be rendered as 'Großadmiral' in the Empire, but there is no reason why we should base our translation on the latter instead of the former. This is unlike Walküre, which is clearly intended in the original Japanese to be such. It is not as if Fleet Admiral Steinmetz is addressed as 'グロスアドミラル・シュタインメッツ', to give a crude example. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 09:54, 6 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::You're right that we normally translate directly from Japanese. That's been the policy all along and i don't think we should change it, in large part because most of the German in the series has already been questionably translated from the Japanese once.<br />
<br />
::In this case, though, i don't think it represents translation from the German. 'Grand admiral' is a term used ''in English'' to describe a rank that existed in the historical German navy which is equivalent to 'fleet admiral'. '元帥' is the only term used to refer to the rank in the dialogue of the series, and it can be translated into English either way depending on the context. The only thing 'Großadmiral' does is (potentially) act as that context.<br />
<br />
::That would be my thinking if we made this change — it wouldn't be a second- or third-hand translation from the German term itself, just a choice of English term based on a cultural/historical reference they intended to make in the original Japanese. But i'm not pushing for it. If you guys don't like it i'm happy with fleet admiral. <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 23:48, 6 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I have mixed feelings. For the original 2nd season subs, I did use Grand Admiral for the Empire vs. Fleet Admiral for the Alliance, because it was the equivalent listed at the old logh.net site. I admit it is also a personal preference in that I think Grand Admiral is more fitting for the Empire, especially since they get a cape. However I acknowledge the difficulty that some viewers might have with keeping in mind rank equivalence, and I am also generally not keen to just make changes simply to match it to "the Germanic way". [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:05, 6 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Drei Grossadmiralsburg.jpg|right|200px]]<br />
: '''"Grand Admiral" is intention of Dr. Tanaka himself''', because he named an imperial fortress "[[Drei Großadmiralsburg Fortress|Drei Großadmiralsburg]]". This is the very original proof that the rank 元帥 for the Empire is "Großadmiral". [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 09:29, 7 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Having thought more about this, I note that for example we have the Imperial Ministry of War as the English title (from Das Kriegsministerium subtitle) as opposed to a direct translation of the Japanese which would be Ministry of Military Affairs. If we go by such a precedent it should be Grand Admiral. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 09:41, 8 January 2022 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:Military_ranks_of_the_Galactic_EmpireTalk:Military ranks of the Galactic Empire2022-01-08T09:41:17Z<p>Iracundus: /* 'Fleet admiral' to 'grand admiral'? */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Uniforms==<br />
Just a thought - we need to differentiate between the uniforms of the Goldenbaum military and the uniforms of the Goldenlohen military. It'd be good if we could find some pictures of the bare uniforms to use, but most likely we'll just have to take screenshots from the show.<br />
<br />
A good idea for the Goldenbaums, at least, would be to rely solely on pictures of Reinhard. We see him at pretty much every rank, after all.[[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 14:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I agree, i think ultimately the page should have two tables at the top showing just the insignia for each dynasty, and then next to each rank section we can have a good screenshot of a person of that rank. The FPA one will be that way too (but they'd only have one table for insignia) <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 15:05, 8 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I think we could use screenshots of Reinhard's rank insignia from when he held different ranks and use those as an example of the rank insignia in a table. —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 15:37, 2 October 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::The gallery already contains sketches showing the uniforms and rank insignia of both dynasties. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 21:02, 2 October 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== 'Fleet admiral' to 'grand admiral'? ==<br />
<br />
This change has implications for the entire site, so we should get a consensus first. To clarify, i guess the proposal is that '元帥' becomes 'grand admiral' for the Empire but remains 'fleet admiral' for the Alliance?<br />
<br />
What does everyone think of that? Given the historical context and the German translation used in the OVA, i think it might make sense. But is it too clever? In general i like to be as accurate with names/terms as possible (see [[Walküre]]) but i do worry that it could confuse people if we deviate too much from the common terminology in fan circles. Not sure.<br />
<br />
If everyone likes it, we'll want to commit to it going forward. Ideally i would also run my bot on all the existing pages but i'm not sure if i have it set up any more.<br />
<br />
It does pose a problem for the [[Template:Rank|rank template]] if the names aren't the same for Imperial and Alliance. Currently, the only thing the second (party) field does is determine which 'Military ranks of...' page gets linked. It doesn't contain any logic to render different names for different parties. We will have to either add that logic or require that people only use 'fleet admiral' for Alliance and 'grand admiral' for Imperial — which isn't ideal, i don't want them to have to remember that. The formatted code also needs updated for that template. Since the current code isn't really correct anyway, i'm going to revert it for now, but we can revisit if everyone approves. <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 21:43, 4 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Frankly I am opposed to this change, because Japanese is the source language we are translating from, not German. So '元帥' might very well be rendered as 'Großadmiral' in the Empire, but there is no reason why we should base our translation on the latter instead of the former. This is unlike Walküre, which is clearly intended in the original Japanese to be such. It is not as if Fleet Admiral Steinmetz is addressed as 'グロスアドミラル・シュタインメッツ', to give a crude example. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 09:54, 6 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::You're right that we normally translate directly from Japanese. That's been the policy all along and i don't think we should change it, in large part because most of the German in the series has already been questionably translated from the Japanese once.<br />
<br />
::In this case, though, i don't think it represents translation from the German. 'Grand admiral' is a term used ''in English'' to describe a rank that existed in the historical German navy which is equivalent to 'fleet admiral'. '元帥' is the only term used to refer to the rank in the dialogue of the series, and it can be translated into English either way depending on the context. The only thing 'Großadmiral' does is (potentially) act as that context.<br />
<br />
::That would be my thinking if we made this change — it wouldn't be a second- or third-hand translation from the German term itself, just a choice of English term based on a cultural/historical reference they intended to make in the original Japanese. But i'm not pushing for it. If you guys don't like it i'm happy with fleet admiral. <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 23:48, 6 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I have mixed feelings. For the original 2nd season subs, I did use Grand Admiral for the Empire vs. Fleet Admiral for the Alliance, because it was the equivalent listed at the old logh.net site. I admit it is also a personal preference in that I think Grand Admiral is more fitting for the Empire, especially since they get a cape. However I acknowledge the difficulty that some viewers might have with keeping in mind rank equivalence, and I am also generally not keen to just make changes simply to match it to "the Germanic way". [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:05, 6 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
[[File:Drei Grossadmiralsburg.jpg|right|200px]]<br />
: '''"Grand Admiral" is intention of Dr. Tanaka himself''', because he named an imperial fortress "[[Drei Großadmiralsburg Fortress|Drei Großadmiralsburg]]". This is the very original proof that the rank 元帥 for the Empire is "Großadmiral". [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 09:29, 7 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
<br />
:Having thought more about this, I note that for example we have the Imperial Ministry of War as the English title (from Das Kriegsministerium subtitle) as opposed to a direct translation of the Japanese which would be Ministry of Military Affairs. If we go by such a precedent it should be Grand Admiral. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 09:41, 8 January 2022 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:Military_ranks_of_the_Galactic_EmpireTalk:Military ranks of the Galactic Empire2022-01-06T12:06:23Z<p>Iracundus: /* 'Fleet admiral' to 'grand admiral'? */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Uniforms==<br />
Just a thought - we need to differentiate between the uniforms of the Goldenbaum military and the uniforms of the Goldenlohen military. It'd be good if we could find some pictures of the bare uniforms to use, but most likely we'll just have to take screenshots from the show.<br />
<br />
A good idea for the Goldenbaums, at least, would be to rely solely on pictures of Reinhard. We see him at pretty much every rank, after all.[[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 14:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I agree, i think ultimately the page should have two tables at the top showing just the insignia for each dynasty, and then next to each rank section we can have a good screenshot of a person of that rank. The FPA one will be that way too (but they'd only have one table for insignia) <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 15:05, 8 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I think we could use screenshots of Reinhard's rank insignia from when he held different ranks and use those as an example of the rank insignia in a table. —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 15:37, 2 October 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::The gallery already contains sketches showing the uniforms and rank insignia of both dynasties. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 21:02, 2 October 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== 'Fleet admiral' to 'grand admiral'? ==<br />
<br />
This change has implications for the entire site, so we should get a consensus first. To clarify, i guess the proposal is that '元帥' becomes 'grand admiral' for the Empire but remains 'fleet admiral' for the Alliance?<br />
<br />
What does everyone think of that? Given the historical context and the German translation used in the OVA, i think it might make sense. But is it too clever? In general i like to be as accurate with names/terms as possible (see [[Walküre]]) but i do worry that it could confuse people if we deviate too much from the common terminology in fan circles. Not sure.<br />
<br />
If everyone likes it, we'll want to commit to it going forward. Ideally i would also run my bot on all the existing pages but i'm not sure if i have it set up any more.<br />
<br />
It does pose a problem for the [[Template:Rank|rank template]] if the names aren't the same for Imperial and Alliance. Currently, the only thing the second (party) field does is determine which 'Military ranks of...' page gets linked. It doesn't contain any logic to render different names for different parties. We will have to either add that logic or require that people only use 'fleet admiral' for Alliance and 'grand admiral' for Imperial — which isn't ideal, i don't want them to have to remember that. The formatted code also needs updated for that template. Since the current code isn't really correct anyway, i'm going to revert it for now, but we can revisit if everyone approves. <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 21:43, 4 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Frankly I am opposed to this change, because Japanese is the source language we are translating from, not German. So '元帥' might very well be rendered as 'Großadmiral' in the Empire, but there is no reason why we should base our translation on the latter instead of the former. This is unlike Walküre, which is clearly intended in the original Japanese to be such. It is not as if Fleet Admiral Steinmetz is addressed as 'グロスアドミラル・シュタインメッツ', to give a crude example. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 09:54, 6 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I have mixed feelings. For the original 2nd season subs, I did use Grand Admiral for the Empire vs. Fleet Admiral for the Alliance, because it was the equivalent listed at the old logh.net site. I admit it is also a personal preference in that I think Grand Admiral is more fitting for the Empire, especially since they get a cape. However I acknowledge the difficulty that some viewers might have with keeping in mind rank equivalence, and I am also generally not keen to just make changes simply to match it to "the Germanic way". [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:05, 6 January 2022 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:Military_ranks_of_the_Galactic_EmpireTalk:Military ranks of the Galactic Empire2022-01-06T12:05:54Z<p>Iracundus: /* 'Fleet admiral' to 'grand admiral'? */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Uniforms==<br />
Just a thought - we need to differentiate between the uniforms of the Goldenbaum military and the uniforms of the Goldenlohen military. It'd be good if we could find some pictures of the bare uniforms to use, but most likely we'll just have to take screenshots from the show.<br />
<br />
A good idea for the Goldenbaums, at least, would be to rely solely on pictures of Reinhard. We see him at pretty much every rank, after all.[[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 14:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I agree, i think ultimately the page should have two tables at the top showing just the insignia for each dynasty, and then next to each rank section we can have a good screenshot of a person of that rank. The FPA one will be that way too (but they'd only have one table for insignia) <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 15:05, 8 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I think we could use screenshots of Reinhard's rank insignia from when he held different ranks and use those as an example of the rank insignia in a table. —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 15:37, 2 October 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::The gallery already contains sketches showing the uniforms and rank insignia of both dynasties. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 21:02, 2 October 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== 'Fleet admiral' to 'grand admiral'? ==<br />
<br />
This change has implications for the entire site, so we should get a consensus first. To clarify, i guess the proposal is that '元帥' becomes 'grand admiral' for the Empire but remains 'fleet admiral' for the Alliance?<br />
<br />
What does everyone think of that? Given the historical context and the German translation used in the OVA, i think it might make sense. But is it too clever? In general i like to be as accurate with names/terms as possible (see [[Walküre]]) but i do worry that it could confuse people if we deviate too much from the common terminology in fan circles. Not sure.<br />
<br />
If everyone likes it, we'll want to commit to it going forward. Ideally i would also run my bot on all the existing pages but i'm not sure if i have it set up any more.<br />
<br />
It does pose a problem for the [[Template:Rank|rank template]] if the names aren't the same for Imperial and Alliance. Currently, the only thing the second (party) field does is determine which 'Military ranks of...' page gets linked. It doesn't contain any logic to render different names for different parties. We will have to either add that logic or require that people only use 'fleet admiral' for Alliance and 'grand admiral' for Imperial — which isn't ideal, i don't want them to have to remember that. The formatted code also needs updated for that template. Since the current code isn't really correct anyway, i'm going to revert it for now, but we can revisit if everyone approves. <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 21:43, 4 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Frankly I am opposed to this change, because Japanese is the source language we are translating from, not German. So '元帥' might very well be rendered as 'Großadmiral' in the Empire, but there is no reason why we should base our translation on the latter instead of the former. This is unlike Walküre, which is clearly intended in the original Japanese to be such. It is not as if Fleet Admiral Steinmetz is addressed as 'グロスアドミラル・シュタインメッツ', to give a crude example. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 09:54, 6 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I have mixed feelings. For the original 2nd season subs, I did use Grand Admiral for the Empire vs. Fleet Admiral for the Alliance, because it was the equivalent listed at the old logh.net site. I admit it is also a personal preference in that I think Grand Admiral is more fitting for the Empire, especially since they get a cape. However I acknowledge the difficulty that viewers might have with keeping in mind rank equivalence, and I am also generally not keen to just make changes simply to match it to "the Germanic way". [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:05, 6 January 2022 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:Military_ranks_of_the_Galactic_EmpireTalk:Military ranks of the Galactic Empire2022-01-06T12:04:53Z<p>Iracundus: /* 'Fleet admiral' to 'grand admiral'? */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Uniforms==<br />
Just a thought - we need to differentiate between the uniforms of the Goldenbaum military and the uniforms of the Goldenlohen military. It'd be good if we could find some pictures of the bare uniforms to use, but most likely we'll just have to take screenshots from the show.<br />
<br />
A good idea for the Goldenbaums, at least, would be to rely solely on pictures of Reinhard. We see him at pretty much every rank, after all.[[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 14:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I agree, i think ultimately the page should have two tables at the top showing just the insignia for each dynasty, and then next to each rank section we can have a good screenshot of a person of that rank. The FPA one will be that way too (but they'd only have one table for insignia) <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 15:05, 8 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::I think we could use screenshots of Reinhard's rank insignia from when he held different ranks and use those as an example of the rank insignia in a table. —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 15:37, 2 October 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::The gallery already contains sketches showing the uniforms and rank insignia of both dynasties. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 21:02, 2 October 2017 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== 'Fleet admiral' to 'grand admiral'? ==<br />
<br />
This change has implications for the entire site, so we should get a consensus first. To clarify, i guess the proposal is that '元帥' becomes 'grand admiral' for the Empire but remains 'fleet admiral' for the Alliance?<br />
<br />
What does everyone think of that? Given the historical context and the German translation used in the OVA, i think it might make sense. But is it too clever? In general i like to be as accurate with names/terms as possible (see [[Walküre]]) but i do worry that it could confuse people if we deviate too much from the common terminology in fan circles. Not sure.<br />
<br />
If everyone likes it, we'll want to commit to it going forward. Ideally i would also run my bot on all the existing pages but i'm not sure if i have it set up any more.<br />
<br />
It does pose a problem for the [[Template:Rank|rank template]] if the names aren't the same for Imperial and Alliance. Currently, the only thing the second (party) field does is determine which 'Military ranks of...' page gets linked. It doesn't contain any logic to render different names for different parties. We will have to either add that logic or require that people only use 'fleet admiral' for Alliance and 'grand admiral' for Imperial — which isn't ideal, i don't want them to have to remember that. The formatted code also needs updated for that template. Since the current code isn't really correct anyway, i'm going to revert it for now, but we can revisit if everyone approves. <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 21:43, 4 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Frankly I am opposed to this change, because Japanese is the source language we are translating from, not German. So '元帥' might very well be rendered as 'Großadmiral' in the Empire, but there is no reason why we should base our translation on the latter instead of the former. This is unlike Walküre, which is clearly intended in the original Japanese to be such. It is not as if Fleet Admiral Steinmetz is addressed as 'グロスアドミラル・シュタインメッツ', to give a crude example. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 09:54, 6 January 2022 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I have mixed feelings. For the original 2nd season subs, I did use Grand Admiral for the Empire vs. Fleet Admiral for the Alliance, because it was the equivalent listed at the old logh.net site. I admit it is also a personal preference in that I think Grand Admiral is more fitting for the Empire, especially since they get a cape. However I acknowledge the difficulty that viewers might have with keeping in mind rank equivalence, and I am also generally not keen to just make changes simply to match it to "the Germanic way".</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:NobilityTalk:Nobility2021-11-26T21:02:40Z<p>Iracundus: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Separate or combined?==<br />
Are we going to have separate articles for these different factions of the nobility? We have one for [[High Nobles]], but i had figured we could just redirect that to this page, the same way we redirect Fezzan Corridor to Navigation corridors? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::?? I brought this up earlier. I thought you had moved things into different pages? Originally, High nobles/nobles/reformer nobles were all one page. [[User:Canary|Canary]] 14:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Did i really? Maybe i was drunk :(<br />
<br />
:::Do you prefer them all together as well then? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Yeah, I prefer them merged. I think, in general, logh is such a rich setting that we are going to have (and already have) a whole lot of pages, so the simpler we keep things, the better.<br />
<br />
== Military service ==<br />
<br />
I vaguely recall this was either mentioned in an episode or written somewhere, but I don't remember where. Were the nobility exempt from military conscription that the common Imperial citizens had to do? —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 22:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:In {{Hbshbl|8}}, Kircheis talks to Martin Bufholtz, and that is where the information about the mandatory military service of 2 years for commoners comes from. I cannot offhand recall a specific source explicitly saying the nobles were exempt. Things like Grand Duke Herbert including drinking friends among his military advisors suggest however 2 possibilities. The first is that maybe nobles were exempt from the mandatory service. Grand Duke Herbert's initial enjoyment of playing "soldier" seems to suggest this first option though it is not conclusive evidence. The second is they were not exempt but they got safe and easy jobs far from the front lines. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 01:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Princes==<br />
<br />
Just as a note, and my own nitpick with the subs, the title of "Prince" (皇子, as in son of an emperor) actually is never used in the series to the best of my knowledge. The title Crown Prince (皇太子) does get used for the designated heir. The only known instances of the title Grand Duke (大公) all seem to be held by sons of the Kaiser. Grand Duke Herbert, Grand Duke Clementz, Grand Duke (in addition to his Crown Prince title) Richard etc... I wonder whether it is a ''de facto'' title for any princes in the Goldenbaum dynasty. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 03:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps. For example, in East Slavic history, the title of Grand Duke and Prince/Grand Prince are often used interchangeably. In the Russian Empire the sons of the the Tsar were given the title of ''Veliky Knyaz'', which can be translated as either Grand Duke or Grand Prince (although the latter is more accurate). —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 17:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Imperial noble ranks ==<br />
<br />
Adccording to the German nobility system,<br />
<br />
侯爵 (''koushaku'') must be translated to '''Fürst''' (Prince of...). It cannot be traslated as '''Markgraf''' (Marquis) which is just a form of '''Graf''' (Count). There is no tradition of promoting a Graf to a Markgraf (because it is the equal rank). If some Graf to be promoted, they will get promotion to Fürst, like German chancellor Otto von Bismarck.<br />
<br />
Also in Japanese language, they have translated Fürst as 侯爵. For example, "Fürst von Bismarck" has been translated as ビスマルク侯爵.<br>Someone claimed that 侯爵 can be translated as Markgraf, that is wrong. The Japanese has translated Markgraf as 辺境伯 (''henkyou-haku''). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 09:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That might be true in German, but in Gineipaedia, English naming conventions take precedence over German, so 侯爵 would be translated as "Marquis" and not "Fürst". [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Even the Gineipaedia take English naming over German, 侯爵 still should be translated as "Prince" (Fürst) not "Marquis" (Markgraf). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 19:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No, what I meant was that English translations of the Japanese titles take precedence over German translations of the Japanese titles. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 01:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No,侯爵 is a direct copy of the Chinese nobility system and is translated as Marquis, not Prince. Prince as in sons of a king are 王子. Princes as in independent rulers of a principality are translated as 王, and "king" is a more appropriate translation. Neither of these describe the rank of 侯爵 which is the 2nd highest noble title, a step below 公爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 02:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: This topic concerns German, Japanese and English. It have nothing to do with Chinese in the first place. I may give you another example: "Fürst zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst" has been translated ホーエンローエ=シリングスフュルスト侯爵 in Japanese, and Prince of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst in English. That's why I say "侯爵" should be translated "Prince" in English. <br />
<br />
:: The German ''Dukes'' (''Herzog'') has dignity = British Prince of Wales, the German ''Feudal Princes'' (''Fürst'') has dignity = British Dukes, the German ''Counts'' (''Graf'') has dignity = British Earls. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 22:52, 22 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::No, it has everything to do with the Chinese noble system because that is both what Japan's system and the Galactic Empire's is based off of. The Galactic Empire superficial Germanic trappings aside is Imperial China. 侯爵 remains Marquis. Dukes remain 公爵 and the original name and titles show this to be the case such as for Grand Duke Herbert. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 08:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: The Galactic Imperial nobility is adapted from Germanic one. In the original novel, Annerose's title is clearly written in Katakana グラフィン・フォン・グリューネワルト (Gräfin von Grünewald) in Chapter 3 act II. It is the original proof that nobility system in LOGH is the Germanic one, not Chinese. Now let's talk about Grand Duke (大公), this one is also slightly mistranslated. 大公 can be translated both Grand Duke and Archduke, but the "Archduke" will be more accurate in this case, because in the Habsburg's Holy Roman Imperial court, sons of Kaisers held this title. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 14:46, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It still shows that 公爵 is Duke which is what you tried to contest, which is wrong. Quibbling over Archduke vs Grand Duke is also pointless as the two terms are synonymous but Herbert is clearly titled as Grand Duke in the hard coded original subs so that is what it will remain. The current titles stand and that is final. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 19:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: I'm not contesting anything about Grand Duke, this one is just my point of view. As you said, the original wrote Grand Duke, then it must be so.<br />
<br />
:::: Back to the main topic, you keep ignoring the importiant points and keep pressing you own assumption about your Chinese things, which lack of ORIGINAL SOURCE. You avoided mention about the fact that "Fürst" has been translated "侯爵" and "Prince", and ingnoring the fact that Annerose's title is written "Gräfin" in Katanaka. I don't mind if you will keep proposing about the Chinese, but at least say something about those facts. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 13:18, 25 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::侯爵 translates as Marquis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess). Gräfin or Graf translates as 伯爵 in both Chinese and Japanese systems or Count (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count) which is a middling rank below 侯, which has always historically in Asia been a high rank, 2nd only to Duke. Littenheim's rivalry and resentment towards Braunschweig is due to being 2nd highest noble in the Empire, not by being some mediocre middle rank noble . That is also part of the reason why Braunschweig and Flegel resent Reinhard and his sister. They resent them being granted what in their view is a ridiculously high rank, i.e. the 2nd highest. That is lost if it is 伯爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 22:00, 25 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::: I have already said that German Marquis (Markgraf) and German Count (Graf) are equal ranks in the Germanic system. German Fürst and British Marquis are using the same Kanji 侯爵, but its dignity is not equal. <br />
<br />
:::::{| class="wikitable"<br />
! Dignity <br />
! Non-Germanic titles<br />
! Germanic titles<br />
|-<br />
! 1<br />
| Prince of... (公) || Herzog (公爵)<br />
|-<br />
! 2<br />
| Duke (公爵) || Fürst (侯爵)<br />
|-<br />
! 3<br />
| Marquis (侯爵) || -<br />
|-<br />
! 4<br />
| Earl (伯爵) || Graf (伯爵) (including Markgraf-Marquis 辺境伯)<br />
|-<br />
! 5<br />
| Viscount (子爵) || -<br />
|-<br />
! 6<br />
| Baron (男爵) || Freiherr (男爵)<br />
|}<br />
<br />
::::: As you can see, whether Non-Germanic or Germanic. 侯爵 is still one level below 公爵 (Duke). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 15:35, 26 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::Good, so you admit then it is Duke Braunschweig. 大公 is Grand Duke, therefore 公 is Duke. Done. End of Discussion. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 19:56, 26 November 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:NobilityTalk:Nobility2021-11-26T19:56:15Z<p>Iracundus: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Separate or combined?==<br />
Are we going to have separate articles for these different factions of the nobility? We have one for [[High Nobles]], but i had figured we could just redirect that to this page, the same way we redirect Fezzan Corridor to Navigation corridors? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::?? I brought this up earlier. I thought you had moved things into different pages? Originally, High nobles/nobles/reformer nobles were all one page. [[User:Canary|Canary]] 14:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Did i really? Maybe i was drunk :(<br />
<br />
:::Do you prefer them all together as well then? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Yeah, I prefer them merged. I think, in general, logh is such a rich setting that we are going to have (and already have) a whole lot of pages, so the simpler we keep things, the better.<br />
<br />
== Military service ==<br />
<br />
I vaguely recall this was either mentioned in an episode or written somewhere, but I don't remember where. Were the nobility exempt from military conscription that the common Imperial citizens had to do? —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 22:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:In {{Hbshbl|8}}, Kircheis talks to Martin Bufholtz, and that is where the information about the mandatory military service of 2 years for commoners comes from. I cannot offhand recall a specific source explicitly saying the nobles were exempt. Things like Grand Duke Herbert including drinking friends among his military advisors suggest however 2 possibilities. The first is that maybe nobles were exempt from the mandatory service. Grand Duke Herbert's initial enjoyment of playing "soldier" seems to suggest this first option though it is not conclusive evidence. The second is they were not exempt but they got safe and easy jobs far from the front lines. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 01:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Princes==<br />
<br />
Just as a note, and my own nitpick with the subs, the title of "Prince" (皇子, as in son of an emperor) actually is never used in the series to the best of my knowledge. The title Crown Prince (皇太子) does get used for the designated heir. The only known instances of the title Grand Duke (大公) all seem to be held by sons of the Kaiser. Grand Duke Herbert, Grand Duke Clementz, Grand Duke (in addition to his Crown Prince title) Richard etc... I wonder whether it is a ''de facto'' title for any princes in the Goldenbaum dynasty. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 03:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps. For example, in East Slavic history, the title of Grand Duke and Prince/Grand Prince are often used interchangeably. In the Russian Empire the sons of the the Tsar were given the title of ''Veliky Knyaz'', which can be translated as either Grand Duke or Grand Prince (although the latter is more accurate). —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 17:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Imperial noble ranks ==<br />
<br />
Adccording to the German nobility system,<br />
<br />
侯爵 (''koushaku'') must be translated to '''Fürst''' (Prince of...). It cannot be traslated as '''Markgraf''' (Marquis) which is just a form of '''Graf''' (Count). There is no tradition of promoting a Graf to a Markgraf (because it is the equal rank). If some Graf to be promoted, they will get promotion to Fürst, like German chancellor Otto von Bismarck.<br />
<br />
Also in Japanese language, they have translated Fürst as 侯爵. For example, "Fürst von Bismarck" has been translated as ビスマルク侯爵.<br>Someone claimed that 侯爵 can be translated as Markgraf, that is wrong. The Japanese has translated Markgraf as 辺境伯 (''henkyou-haku''). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 09:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That might be true in German, but in Gineipaedia, English naming conventions take precedence over German, so 侯爵 would be translated as "Marquis" and not "Fürst". [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Even the Gineipaedia take English naming over German, 侯爵 still should be translated as "Prince" (Fürst) not "Marquis" (Markgraf). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 19:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No, what I meant was that English translations of the Japanese titles take precedence over German translations of the Japanese titles. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 01:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No,侯爵 is a direct copy of the Chinese nobility system and is translated as Marquis, not Prince. Prince as in sons of a king are 王子. Princes as in independent rulers of a principality are translated as 王, and "king" is a more appropriate translation. Neither of these describe the rank of 侯爵 which is the 2nd highest noble title, a step below 公爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 02:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: This topic concerns German, Japanese and English. It have nothing to do with Chinese in the first place. I may give you another example: "Fürst zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst" has been translated ホーエンローエ=シリングスフュルスト侯爵 in Japanese, and Prince of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst in English. That's why I say "侯爵" should be translated "Prince" in English. <br />
<br />
:: The German ''Dukes'' (''Herzog'') has dignity = British Prince of Wales, the German ''Feudal Princes'' (''Fürst'') has dignity = British Dukes, the German ''Counts'' (''Graf'') has dignity = British Earls. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 22:52, 22 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::No, it has everything to do with the Chinese noble system because that is both what Japan's system and the Galactic Empire's is based off of. The Galactic Empire superficial Germanic trappings aside is Imperial China. 侯爵 remains Marquis. Dukes remain 公爵 and the original name and titles show this to be the case such as for Grand Duke Herbert. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 08:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: The Galactic Imperial nobility is adapted from Germanic one. In the original novel, Annerose's title is clearly written in Katakana グラフィン・フォン・グリューネワルト (Gräfin von Grünewald) in Chapter 3 act II. It is the original proof that nobility system in LOGH is the Germanic one, not Chinese. Now let's talk about Grand Duke (大公), this one is also slightly mistranslated. 大公 can be translated both Grand Duke and Archduke, but the "Archduke" will be more accurate in this case, because in the Habsburg's Holy Roman Imperial court, sons of Kaisers held this title. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 14:46, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It still shows that 公爵 is Duke which is what you tried to contest, which is wrong. Quibbling over Archduke vs Grand Duke is also pointless as the two terms are synonymous but Herbert is clearly titled as Grand Duke in the hard coded original subs so that is what it will remain. The current titles stand and that is final. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 19:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: I'm not contesting anything about Grand Duke, this one is just my point of view. As you said, the original wrote Grand Duke, then it must be so.<br />
<br />
:::: Back to the main topic, you keep ignoring the importiant points and keep pressing you own assumption about your Chinese things, which lack of ORIGINAL SOURCE. You avoided mention about the fact that "Fürst" has been translated "侯爵" and "Prince", and ingnoring the fact that Annerose's title is written "Gräfin" in Katanaka. I don't mind if you will keep proposing about the Chinese, but at least say something about those facts. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 13:18, 25 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::侯爵 translates as Marquis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess). Gräfin or Graf translates as 伯爵 in both Chinese and Japanese systems or Count (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count) which is a middling rank below 侯, which has always historically in Asia been a high rank, 2nd only to Duke. Littenheim's rivalry and resentment towards Braunschweig is due to being 2nd highest noble in the Empire, not by being some mediocre middle rank noble . That is also part of the reason why Braunschweig and Flegel resent Reinhard and his sister. They resent them being granted what in their view is a ridiculously high rank, i.e. the 2nd highest. That is lost if it is 伯爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 22:00, 25 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::: I have already said that German Marquis (Markgraf) and German Count (Graf) are equal ranks in the Germanic system. German Fürst and British Marquis are using the same Kanji 侯爵, but its dignity is not equal. <br />
<br />
:::::{| class="wikitable"<br />
! Dignity <br />
! Non-Germanic titles<br />
! Germanic titles<br />
|-<br />
! 1<br />
| Prince of... (公) || Herzog (公爵)<br />
|-<br />
! 2<br />
| Duke (公爵) || Fürst (侯爵)<br />
|-<br />
! 3<br />
| Marquis (侯爵) || -<br />
|-<br />
! 4<br />
| Earl (伯爵) || Graf (伯爵) (including Markgraf-Marquis 辺境伯)<br />
|-<br />
! 5<br />
| Viscount (子爵) || -<br />
|-<br />
! 6<br />
| Baron (男爵) || Freiherr (男爵)<br />
|}<br />
<br />
::::: As you can see, whether Non-Germanic or Germanic. 侯爵 is still one level below 公爵 (Duke). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 15:35, 26 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::Good, so you admit then it is Duke Braunschweig. Done. End of Discussion. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 19:56, 26 November 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:NobilityTalk:Nobility2021-11-26T19:56:00Z<p>Iracundus: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Separate or combined?==<br />
Are we going to have separate articles for these different factions of the nobility? We have one for [[High Nobles]], but i had figured we could just redirect that to this page, the same way we redirect Fezzan Corridor to Navigation corridors? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::?? I brought this up earlier. I thought you had moved things into different pages? Originally, High nobles/nobles/reformer nobles were all one page. [[User:Canary|Canary]] 14:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Did i really? Maybe i was drunk :(<br />
<br />
:::Do you prefer them all together as well then? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Yeah, I prefer them merged. I think, in general, logh is such a rich setting that we are going to have (and already have) a whole lot of pages, so the simpler we keep things, the better.<br />
<br />
== Military service ==<br />
<br />
I vaguely recall this was either mentioned in an episode or written somewhere, but I don't remember where. Were the nobility exempt from military conscription that the common Imperial citizens had to do? —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 22:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:In {{Hbshbl|8}}, Kircheis talks to Martin Bufholtz, and that is where the information about the mandatory military service of 2 years for commoners comes from. I cannot offhand recall a specific source explicitly saying the nobles were exempt. Things like Grand Duke Herbert including drinking friends among his military advisors suggest however 2 possibilities. The first is that maybe nobles were exempt from the mandatory service. Grand Duke Herbert's initial enjoyment of playing "soldier" seems to suggest this first option though it is not conclusive evidence. The second is they were not exempt but they got safe and easy jobs far from the front lines. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 01:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Princes==<br />
<br />
Just as a note, and my own nitpick with the subs, the title of "Prince" (皇子, as in son of an emperor) actually is never used in the series to the best of my knowledge. The title Crown Prince (皇太子) does get used for the designated heir. The only known instances of the title Grand Duke (大公) all seem to be held by sons of the Kaiser. Grand Duke Herbert, Grand Duke Clementz, Grand Duke (in addition to his Crown Prince title) Richard etc... I wonder whether it is a ''de facto'' title for any princes in the Goldenbaum dynasty. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 03:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps. For example, in East Slavic history, the title of Grand Duke and Prince/Grand Prince are often used interchangeably. In the Russian Empire the sons of the the Tsar were given the title of ''Veliky Knyaz'', which can be translated as either Grand Duke or Grand Prince (although the latter is more accurate). —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 17:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Imperial noble ranks ==<br />
<br />
Adccording to the German nobility system,<br />
<br />
侯爵 (''koushaku'') must be translated to '''Fürst''' (Prince of...). It cannot be traslated as '''Markgraf''' (Marquis) which is just a form of '''Graf''' (Count). There is no tradition of promoting a Graf to a Markgraf (because it is the equal rank). If some Graf to be promoted, they will get promotion to Fürst, like German chancellor Otto von Bismarck.<br />
<br />
Also in Japanese language, they have translated Fürst as 侯爵. For example, "Fürst von Bismarck" has been translated as ビスマルク侯爵.<br>Someone claimed that 侯爵 can be translated as Markgraf, that is wrong. The Japanese has translated Markgraf as 辺境伯 (''henkyou-haku''). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 09:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That might be true in German, but in Gineipaedia, English naming conventions take precedence over German, so 侯爵 would be translated as "Marquis" and not "Fürst". [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Even the Gineipaedia take English naming over German, 侯爵 still should be translated as "Prince" (Fürst) not "Marquis" (Markgraf). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 19:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No, what I meant was that English translations of the Japanese titles take precedence over German translations of the Japanese titles. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 01:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No,侯爵 is a direct copy of the Chinese nobility system and is translated as Marquis, not Prince. Prince as in sons of a king are 王子. Princes as in independent rulers of a principality are translated as 王, and "king" is a more appropriate translation. Neither of these describe the rank of 侯爵 which is the 2nd highest noble title, a step below 公爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 02:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: This topic concerns German, Japanese and English. It have nothing to do with Chinese in the first place. I may give you another example: "Fürst zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst" has been translated ホーエンローエ=シリングスフュルスト侯爵 in Japanese, and Prince of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst in English. That's why I say "侯爵" should be translated "Prince" in English. <br />
<br />
:: The German ''Dukes'' (''Herzog'') has dignity = British Prince of Wales, the German ''Feudal Princes'' (''Fürst'') has dignity = British Dukes, the German ''Counts'' (''Graf'') has dignity = British Earls. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 22:52, 22 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::No, it has everything to do with the Chinese noble system because that is both what Japan's system and the Galactic Empire's is based off of. The Galactic Empire superficial Germanic trappings aside is Imperial China. 侯爵 remains Marquis. Dukes remain 公爵 and the original name and titles show this to be the case such as for Grand Duke Herbert. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 08:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: The Galactic Imperial nobility is adapted from Germanic one. In the original novel, Annerose's title is clearly written in Katakana グラフィン・フォン・グリューネワルト (Gräfin von Grünewald) in Chapter 3 act II. It is the original proof that nobility system in LOGH is the Germanic one, not Chinese. Now let's talk about Grand Duke (大公), this one is also slightly mistranslated. 大公 can be translated both Grand Duke and Archduke, but the "Archduke" will be more accurate in this case, because in the Habsburg's Holy Roman Imperial court, sons of Kaisers held this title. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 14:46, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It still shows that 公爵 is Duke which is what you tried to contest, which is wrong. Quibbling over Archduke vs Grand Duke is also pointless as the two terms are synonymous but Herbert is clearly titled as Grand Duke in the hard coded original subs so that is what it will remain. The current titles stand and that is final. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 19:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: I'm not contesting anything about Grand Duke, this one is just my point of view. As you said, the original wrote Grand Duke, then it must be so.<br />
<br />
:::: Back to the main topic, you keep ignoring the importiant points and keep pressing you own assumption about your Chinese things, which lack of ORIGINAL SOURCE. You avoided mention about the fact that "Fürst" has been translated "侯爵" and "Prince", and ingnoring the fact that Annerose's title is written "Gräfin" in Katanaka. I don't mind if you will keep proposing about the Chinese, but at least say something about those facts. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 13:18, 25 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::侯爵 translates as Marquis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess). Gräfin or Graf translates as 伯爵 in both Chinese and Japanese systems or Count (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count) which is a middling rank below 侯, which has always historically in Asia been a high rank, 2nd only to Duke. Littenheim's rivalry and resentment towards Braunschweig is due to being 2nd highest noble in the Empire, not by being some mediocre middle rank noble . That is also part of the reason why Braunschweig and Flegel resent Reinhard and his sister. They resent them being granted what in their view is a ridiculously high rank, i.e. the 2nd highest. That is lost if it is 伯爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 22:00, 25 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::: I have already said that German Marquis (Markgraf) and German Count (Graf) are equal ranks in the Germanic system. German Fürst and British Marquis are using the same Kanji 侯爵, but its dignity is not equal. <br />
<br />
:::::{| class="wikitable"<br />
! Dignity <br />
! Non-Germanic titles<br />
! Germanic titles<br />
|-<br />
! 1<br />
| Prince of... (公) || Herzog (公爵)<br />
|-<br />
! 2<br />
| Duke (公爵) || Fürst (侯爵)<br />
|-<br />
! 3<br />
| Marquis (侯爵) || -<br />
|-<br />
! 4<br />
| Earl (伯爵) || Graf (伯爵) (including Markgraf-Marquis 辺境伯)<br />
|-<br />
! 5<br />
| Viscount (子爵) || -<br />
|-<br />
! 6<br />
| Baron (男爵) || Freiherr (男爵)<br />
|}<br />
<br />
::::: As you can see, whether Non-Germanic or Germanic. 侯爵 is still one level below 公爵 (Duke). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 15:35, 26 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::Good, so you admit then it is Duke Braunschweig. Done. End of Discussion. 19:56, 26 November 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:NobilityTalk:Nobility2021-11-25T22:04:31Z<p>Iracundus: /* Imperial noble ranks */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Separate or combined?==<br />
Are we going to have separate articles for these different factions of the nobility? We have one for [[High Nobles]], but i had figured we could just redirect that to this page, the same way we redirect Fezzan Corridor to Navigation corridors? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::?? I brought this up earlier. I thought you had moved things into different pages? Originally, High nobles/nobles/reformer nobles were all one page. [[User:Canary|Canary]] 14:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Did i really? Maybe i was drunk :(<br />
<br />
:::Do you prefer them all together as well then? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Yeah, I prefer them merged. I think, in general, logh is such a rich setting that we are going to have (and already have) a whole lot of pages, so the simpler we keep things, the better.<br />
<br />
== Military service ==<br />
<br />
I vaguely recall this was either mentioned in an episode or written somewhere, but I don't remember where. Were the nobility exempt from military conscription that the common Imperial citizens had to do? —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 22:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:In {{Hbshbl|8}}, Kircheis talks to Martin Bufholtz, and that is where the information about the mandatory military service of 2 years for commoners comes from. I cannot offhand recall a specific source explicitly saying the nobles were exempt. Things like Grand Duke Herbert including drinking friends among his military advisors suggest however 2 possibilities. The first is that maybe nobles were exempt from the mandatory service. Grand Duke Herbert's initial enjoyment of playing "soldier" seems to suggest this first option though it is not conclusive evidence. The second is they were not exempt but they got safe and easy jobs far from the front lines. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 01:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Princes==<br />
<br />
Just as a note, and my own nitpick with the subs, the title of "Prince" (皇子, as in son of an emperor) actually is never used in the series to the best of my knowledge. The title Crown Prince (皇太子) does get used for the designated heir. The only known instances of the title Grand Duke (大公) all seem to be held by sons of the Kaiser. Grand Duke Herbert, Grand Duke Clementz, Grand Duke (in addition to his Crown Prince title) Richard etc... I wonder whether it is a ''de facto'' title for any princes in the Goldenbaum dynasty. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 03:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps. For example, in East Slavic history, the title of Grand Duke and Prince/Grand Prince are often used interchangeably. In the Russian Empire the sons of the the Tsar were given the title of ''Veliky Knyaz'', which can be translated as either Grand Duke or Grand Prince (although the latter is more accurate). —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 17:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Imperial noble ranks ==<br />
<br />
Adccording to the German nobility system,<br />
<br />
侯爵 (''koushaku'') must be translated to '''Fürst''' (Prince of...). It cannot be traslated as '''Markgraf''' (Marquis) which is just a form of '''Graf''' (Count). There is no tradition of promoting a Graf to a Markgraf (because it is the equal rank). If some Graf to be promoted, they will get promotion to Fürst, like German chancellor Otto von Bismarck.<br />
<br />
Also in Japanese language, they have translated Fürst as 侯爵. For example, "Fürst von Bismarck" has been translated as ビスマルク侯爵.<br>Someone claimed that 侯爵 can be translated as Markgraf, that is wrong. The Japanese has translated Markgraf as 辺境伯 (''henkyou-haku''). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 09:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That might be true in German, but in Gineipaedia, English naming conventions take precedence over German, so 侯爵 would be translated as "Marquis" and not "Fürst". [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Even the Gineipaedia take English naming over German, 侯爵 still should be translated as "Prince" (Fürst) not "Marquis" (Markgraf). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 19:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No, what I meant was that English translations of the Japanese titles take precedence over German translations of the Japanese titles. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 01:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No,侯爵 is a direct copy of the Chinese nobility system and is translated as Marquis, not Prince. Prince as in sons of a king are 王子. Princes as in independent rulers of a principality are translated as 王, and "king" is a more appropriate translation. Neither of these describe the rank of 侯爵 which is the 2nd highest noble title, a step below 公爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 02:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: This topic concerns German, Japanese and English. It have nothing to do with Chinese in the first place. I may give you another example: "Fürst zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst" has been translated ホーエンローエ=シリングスフュルスト侯爵 in Japanese, and Prince of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst in English. That's why I say "侯爵" should be translated "Prince" in English. <br />
<br />
:: The German ''Dukes'' (''Herzog'') has dignity = British Prince of Wales, the German ''Feudal Princes'' (''Fürst'') has dignity = British Dukes, the German ''Counts'' (''Graf'') has dignity = British Earls. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 22:52, 22 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::No, it has everything to do with the Chinese noble system because that is both what Japan's system and the Galactic Empire's is based off of. The Galactic Empire superficial Germanic trappings aside is Imperial China. 侯爵 remains Marquis. Dukes remain 公爵 and the original name and titles show this to be the case such as for Grand Duke Herbert. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 08:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: The Galactic Imperial nobility is adapted from Germanic one. In the original novel, Annerose's title is clearly written in Katakana グラフィン・フォン・グリューネワルト (Gräfin von Grünewald) in Chapter 3 act II. It is the original proof that nobility system in LOGH is the Germanic one, not Chinese. Now let's talk about Grand Duke (大公), this one is also slightly mistranslated. 大公 can be translated both Grand Duke and Archduke, but the "Archduke" will be more accurate in this case, because in the Habsburg's Holy Roman Imperial court, sons of Kaisers held this title. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 14:46, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It still shows that 公爵 is Duke which is what you tried to contest, which is wrong. Quibbling over Archduke vs Grand Duke is also pointless as the two terms are synonymous but Herbert is clearly titled as Grand Duke in the hard coded original subs so that is what it will remain. The current titles stand and that is final. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 19:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: I'm not contesting anything about Grand Duke, this one is just my point of view. As you said, the original wrote Grand Duke, then it must be so.<br />
<br />
:::: Back to the main topic, you keep ignoring the importiant points and keep pressing you own assumption about your Chinese things, which lack of ORIGINAL SOURCE. You avoided mention about the fact that "Fürst" has been translated "侯爵" and "Prince", and ingnoring the fact that Annerose's title is written "Gräfin" in Katanaka. I don't mind if you will keep proposing about the Chinese, but at least say something about those facts. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 13:18, 25 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::侯爵 translates as Marquis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess). Gräfin or Graf translates as 伯爵 in both Chinese and Japanese systems or Count (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count) which is a middling rank below 侯, which has always historically in Asia been a high rank, 2nd only to Duke. Littenheim's rivalry and resentment towards Braunschweig is due to being 2nd highest noble in the Empire, not by being some mediocre middle rank noble . That is also part of the reason why Braunschweig and Flegel resent Reinhard and his sister. They resent them being granted what in their view is a ridiculously high rank, i.e. the 2nd highest. That is lost if it is 伯爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 22:00, 25 November 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:NobilityTalk:Nobility2021-11-25T22:00:00Z<p>Iracundus: /* Imperial noble ranks */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Separate or combined?==<br />
Are we going to have separate articles for these different factions of the nobility? We have one for [[High Nobles]], but i had figured we could just redirect that to this page, the same way we redirect Fezzan Corridor to Navigation corridors? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::?? I brought this up earlier. I thought you had moved things into different pages? Originally, High nobles/nobles/reformer nobles were all one page. [[User:Canary|Canary]] 14:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Did i really? Maybe i was drunk :(<br />
<br />
:::Do you prefer them all together as well then? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Yeah, I prefer them merged. I think, in general, logh is such a rich setting that we are going to have (and already have) a whole lot of pages, so the simpler we keep things, the better.<br />
<br />
== Military service ==<br />
<br />
I vaguely recall this was either mentioned in an episode or written somewhere, but I don't remember where. Were the nobility exempt from military conscription that the common Imperial citizens had to do? —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 22:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:In {{Hbshbl|8}}, Kircheis talks to Martin Bufholtz, and that is where the information about the mandatory military service of 2 years for commoners comes from. I cannot offhand recall a specific source explicitly saying the nobles were exempt. Things like Grand Duke Herbert including drinking friends among his military advisors suggest however 2 possibilities. The first is that maybe nobles were exempt from the mandatory service. Grand Duke Herbert's initial enjoyment of playing "soldier" seems to suggest this first option though it is not conclusive evidence. The second is they were not exempt but they got safe and easy jobs far from the front lines. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 01:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Princes==<br />
<br />
Just as a note, and my own nitpick with the subs, the title of "Prince" (皇子, as in son of an emperor) actually is never used in the series to the best of my knowledge. The title Crown Prince (皇太子) does get used for the designated heir. The only known instances of the title Grand Duke (大公) all seem to be held by sons of the Kaiser. Grand Duke Herbert, Grand Duke Clementz, Grand Duke (in addition to his Crown Prince title) Richard etc... I wonder whether it is a ''de facto'' title for any princes in the Goldenbaum dynasty. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 03:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps. For example, in East Slavic history, the title of Grand Duke and Prince/Grand Prince are often used interchangeably. In the Russian Empire the sons of the the Tsar were given the title of ''Veliky Knyaz'', which can be translated as either Grand Duke or Grand Prince (although the latter is more accurate). —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 17:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Imperial noble ranks ==<br />
<br />
Adccording to the German nobility system,<br />
<br />
侯爵 (''koushaku'') must be translated to '''Fürst''' (Prince of...). It cannot be traslated as '''Markgraf''' (Marquis) which is just a form of '''Graf''' (Count). There is no tradition of promoting a Graf to a Markgraf (because it is the equal rank). If some Graf to be promoted, they will get promotion to Fürst, like German chancellor Otto von Bismarck.<br />
<br />
Also in Japanese language, they have translated Fürst as 侯爵. For example, "Fürst von Bismarck" has been translated as ビスマルク侯爵.<br>Someone claimed that 侯爵 can be translated as Markgraf, that is wrong. The Japanese has translated Markgraf as 辺境伯 (''henkyou-haku''). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 09:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That might be true in German, but in Gineipaedia, English naming conventions take precedence over German, so 侯爵 would be translated as "Marquis" and not "Fürst". [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Even the Gineipaedia take English naming over German, 侯爵 still should be translated as "Prince" (Fürst) not "Marquis" (Markgraf). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 19:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No, what I meant was that English translations of the Japanese titles take precedence over German translations of the Japanese titles. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 01:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No,侯爵 is a direct copy of the Chinese nobility system and is translated as Marquis, not Prince. Prince as in sons of a king are 王子. Princes as in independent rulers of a principality are translated as 王, and "king" is a more appropriate translation. Neither of these describe the rank of 侯爵 which is the 2nd highest noble title, a step below 公爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 02:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: This topic concerns German, Japanese and English. It have nothing to do with Chinese in the first place. I may give you another example: "Fürst zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst" has been translated ホーエンローエ=シリングスフュルスト侯爵 in Japanese, and Prince of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst in English. That's why I say "侯爵" should be translated "Prince" in English. <br />
<br />
:: The German ''Dukes'' (''Herzog'') has dignity = British Prince of Wales, the German ''Feudal Princes'' (''Fürst'') has dignity = British Dukes, the German ''Counts'' (''Graf'') has dignity = British Earls. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 22:52, 22 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::No, it has everything to do with the Chinese noble system because that is both what Japan's system and the Galactic Empire's is based off of. The Galactic Empire superficial Germanic trappings aside is Imperial China. 侯爵 remains Marquis. Dukes remain 公爵 and the original name and titles show this to be the case such as for Grand Duke Herbert. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 08:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: The Galactic Imperial nobility is adapted from Germanic one. In the original novel, Annerose's title is clearly written in Katakana グラフィン・フォン・グリューネワルト (Gräfin von Grünewald) in Chapter 3 act II. It is the original proof that nobility system in LOGH is the Germanic one, not Chinese. Now let's talk about Grand Duke (大公), this one is also slightly mistranslated. 大公 can be translated both Grand Duke and Archduke, but the "Archduke" will be more accurate in this case, because in the Habsburg's Holy Roman Imperial court, sons of Kaisers held this title. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 14:46, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It still shows that 公爵 is Duke which is what you tried to contest, which is wrong. Quibbling over Archduke vs Grand Duke is also pointless as the two terms are synonymous but Herbert is clearly titled as Grand Duke in the hard coded original subs so that is what it will remain. The current titles stand and that is final. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 19:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::: I'm not contesting anything about Grand Duke, this one is just my point of view. As you said, the original wrote Grand Duke, then it must be so.<br />
<br />
:::: Back to the main topic, you keep ignoring the importiant points and keep pressing you own assumption about your Chinese things, which lack of ORIGINAL SOURCE. You avoided mention about the fact that "Fürst" has been translated "侯爵" and "Prince", and ingnoring the fact that Annerose's title is written "Gräfin" in Katanaka. I don't mind if you will keep proposing about the Chinese, but at least say something about those facts. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 13:18, 25 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::侯爵 translates as Marquis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess). Gräfin or Graf translates as 伯爵 in both Chinese and Japanese systems or Count (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count) which is a middling rank below 侯, which has always historically in Asia been a high rank, 2nd only to Duke. Littenheim's rivalry and resentment towards Braunschweig is due to being 2nd highest noble in the Empire, not by being some mediocre middle rank noble . That is also part of the reason why Braunschweig and Flegel resent Reinhard and his sister. They resent them being granted what in their view is a ridiculously high rank. That is lost if it is 伯爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 22:00, 25 November 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:NobilityTalk:Nobility2021-11-23T19:55:04Z<p>Iracundus: /* Imperial noble ranks */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Separate or combined?==<br />
Are we going to have separate articles for these different factions of the nobility? We have one for [[High Nobles]], but i had figured we could just redirect that to this page, the same way we redirect Fezzan Corridor to Navigation corridors? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::?? I brought this up earlier. I thought you had moved things into different pages? Originally, High nobles/nobles/reformer nobles were all one page. [[User:Canary|Canary]] 14:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Did i really? Maybe i was drunk :(<br />
<br />
:::Do you prefer them all together as well then? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Yeah, I prefer them merged. I think, in general, logh is such a rich setting that we are going to have (and already have) a whole lot of pages, so the simpler we keep things, the better.<br />
<br />
== Military service ==<br />
<br />
I vaguely recall this was either mentioned in an episode or written somewhere, but I don't remember where. Were the nobility exempt from military conscription that the common Imperial citizens had to do? —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 22:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:In {{Hbshbl|8}}, Kircheis talks to Martin Bufholtz, and that is where the information about the mandatory military service of 2 years for commoners comes from. I cannot offhand recall a specific source explicitly saying the nobles were exempt. Things like Grand Duke Herbert including drinking friends among his military advisors suggest however 2 possibilities. The first is that maybe nobles were exempt from the mandatory service. Grand Duke Herbert's initial enjoyment of playing "soldier" seems to suggest this first option though it is not conclusive evidence. The second is they were not exempt but they got safe and easy jobs far from the front lines. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 01:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Princes==<br />
<br />
Just as a note, and my own nitpick with the subs, the title of "Prince" (皇子, as in son of an emperor) actually is never used in the series to the best of my knowledge. The title Crown Prince (皇太子) does get used for the designated heir. The only known instances of the title Grand Duke (大公) all seem to be held by sons of the Kaiser. Grand Duke Herbert, Grand Duke Clementz, Grand Duke (in addition to his Crown Prince title) Richard etc... I wonder whether it is a ''de facto'' title for any princes in the Goldenbaum dynasty. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 03:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps. For example, in East Slavic history, the title of Grand Duke and Prince/Grand Prince are often used interchangeably. In the Russian Empire the sons of the the Tsar were given the title of ''Veliky Knyaz'', which can be translated as either Grand Duke or Grand Prince (although the latter is more accurate). —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 17:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Imperial noble ranks ==<br />
<br />
Adccording to the German nobility system,<br />
<br />
侯爵 (''koushaku'') must be translated to '''Fürst''' (Prince of...). It cannot be traslated as '''Markgraf''' (Marquis) which is just a form of '''Graf''' (Count). There is no tradition of promoting a Graf to a Markgraf (because it is the equal rank). If some Graf to be promoted, they will get promotion to Fürst, like German chancellor Otto von Bismarck.<br />
<br />
Also in Japanese language, they have translated Fürst as 侯爵. For example, "Fürst von Bismarck" has been translated as ビスマルク侯爵.<br>Someone claimed that 侯爵 can be translated as Markgraf, that is wrong. The Japanese has translated Markgraf as 辺境伯 (''henkyou-haku''). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 09:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That might be true in German, but in Gineipaedia, English naming conventions take precedence over German, so 侯爵 would be translated as "Marquis" and not "Fürst". [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Even the Gineipaedia take English naming over German, 侯爵 still should be translated as "Prince" (Fürst) not "Marquis" (Markgraf). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 19:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No, what I meant was that English translations of the Japanese titles take precedence over German translations of the Japanese titles. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 01:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No,侯爵 is a direct copy of the Chinese nobility system and is translated as Marquis, not Prince. Prince as in sons of a king are 王子. Princes as in independent rulers of a principality are translated as 王, and "king" is a more appropriate translation. Neither of these describe the rank of 侯爵 which is the 2nd highest noble title, a step below 公爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 02:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: This topic concerns German, Japanese and English. It have nothing to do with Chinese in the first place. I may give you another example: "Fürst zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst" has been translated ホーエンローエ=シリングスフュルスト侯爵 in Japanese, and Prince of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst in English. That's why I say "侯爵" should be translated "Prince" in English. <br />
<br />
:: The German ''Dukes'' (''Herzog'') has dignity = British Prince of Wales, the German ''Feudal Princes'' (''Fürst'') has dignity = British Dukes, the German ''Counts'' (''Graf'') has dignity = British Earls. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 22:52, 22 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::No, it has everything to do with the Chinese noble system because that is both what Japan's system and the Galactic Empire's is based off of. The Galactic Empire superficial Germanic trappings aside is Imperial China. 侯爵 remains Marquis. Dukes remain 公爵 and the original name and titles show this to be the case such as for Grand Duke Herbert. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 08:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: The Galactic Imperial nobility is adapted from Germanic one. In the original novel, Annerose's title is clearly written in Katakana グラフィン・フォン・グリューネワルト (Gräfin von Grünewald) in Chapter 3 act II. It is the original proof that nobility system in LOGH is the Germanic one, not Chinese. Now let's talk about Grand Duke (大公), this one is also slightly mistranslated. 大公 can be translated both Grand Duke and Archduke, but the "Archduke" will be more accurate in this case, because in the Habsburg's Holy Roman Imperial court, sons of Kaisers held this title. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 14:46, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It still shows that 公爵 is Duke which is what you tried to contest, which is wrong. Quibbling over Archduke vs Grand Duke is also pointless as the two terms are synonymous but Herbert is clearly titled as Grand Duke in the hard coded original subs so that is what it will remain. The current titles stand and that is final. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 19:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:NobilityTalk:Nobility2021-11-23T19:49:32Z<p>Iracundus: /* Imperial noble ranks */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Separate or combined?==<br />
Are we going to have separate articles for these different factions of the nobility? We have one for [[High Nobles]], but i had figured we could just redirect that to this page, the same way we redirect Fezzan Corridor to Navigation corridors? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::?? I brought this up earlier. I thought you had moved things into different pages? Originally, High nobles/nobles/reformer nobles were all one page. [[User:Canary|Canary]] 14:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Did i really? Maybe i was drunk :(<br />
<br />
:::Do you prefer them all together as well then? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Yeah, I prefer them merged. I think, in general, logh is such a rich setting that we are going to have (and already have) a whole lot of pages, so the simpler we keep things, the better.<br />
<br />
== Military service ==<br />
<br />
I vaguely recall this was either mentioned in an episode or written somewhere, but I don't remember where. Were the nobility exempt from military conscription that the common Imperial citizens had to do? —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 22:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:In {{Hbshbl|8}}, Kircheis talks to Martin Bufholtz, and that is where the information about the mandatory military service of 2 years for commoners comes from. I cannot offhand recall a specific source explicitly saying the nobles were exempt. Things like Grand Duke Herbert including drinking friends among his military advisors suggest however 2 possibilities. The first is that maybe nobles were exempt from the mandatory service. Grand Duke Herbert's initial enjoyment of playing "soldier" seems to suggest this first option though it is not conclusive evidence. The second is they were not exempt but they got safe and easy jobs far from the front lines. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 01:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Princes==<br />
<br />
Just as a note, and my own nitpick with the subs, the title of "Prince" (皇子, as in son of an emperor) actually is never used in the series to the best of my knowledge. The title Crown Prince (皇太子) does get used for the designated heir. The only known instances of the title Grand Duke (大公) all seem to be held by sons of the Kaiser. Grand Duke Herbert, Grand Duke Clementz, Grand Duke (in addition to his Crown Prince title) Richard etc... I wonder whether it is a ''de facto'' title for any princes in the Goldenbaum dynasty. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 03:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps. For example, in East Slavic history, the title of Grand Duke and Prince/Grand Prince are often used interchangeably. In the Russian Empire the sons of the the Tsar were given the title of ''Veliky Knyaz'', which can be translated as either Grand Duke or Grand Prince (although the latter is more accurate). —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 17:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Imperial noble ranks ==<br />
<br />
Adccording to the German nobility system,<br />
<br />
侯爵 (''koushaku'') must be translated to '''Fürst''' (Prince of...). It cannot be traslated as '''Markgraf''' (Marquis) which is just a form of '''Graf''' (Count). There is no tradition of promoting a Graf to a Markgraf (because it is the equal rank). If some Graf to be promoted, they will get promotion to Fürst, like German chancellor Otto von Bismarck.<br />
<br />
Also in Japanese language, they have translated Fürst as 侯爵. For example, "Fürst von Bismarck" has been translated as ビスマルク侯爵.<br>Someone claimed that 侯爵 can be translated as Markgraf, that is wrong. The Japanese has translated Markgraf as 辺境伯 (''henkyou-haku''). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 09:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That might be true in German, but in Gineipaedia, English naming conventions take precedence over German, so 侯爵 would be translated as "Marquis" and not "Fürst". [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Even the Gineipaedia take English naming over German, 侯爵 still should be translated as "Prince" (Fürst) not "Marquis" (Markgraf). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 19:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No, what I meant was that English translations of the Japanese titles take precedence over German translations of the Japanese titles. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 01:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No,侯爵 is a direct copy of the Chinese nobility system and is translated as Marquis, not Prince. Prince as in sons of a king are 王子. Princes as in independent rulers of a principality are translated as 王, and "king" is a more appropriate translation. Neither of these describe the rank of 侯爵 which is the 2nd highest noble title, a step below 公爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 02:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: This topic concerns German, Japanese and English. It have nothing to do with Chinese in the first place. I may give you another example: "Fürst zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst" has been translated ホーエンローエ=シリングスフュルスト侯爵 in Japanese, and Prince of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst in English. That's why I say "侯爵" should be translated "Prince" in English. <br />
<br />
:: The German ''Dukes'' (''Herzog'') has dignity = British Prince of Wales, the German ''Feudal Princes'' (''Fürst'') has dignity = British Dukes, the German ''Counts'' (''Graf'') has dignity = British Earls. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 22:52, 22 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::No, it has everything to do with the Chinese noble system because that is both what Japan's system and the Galactic Empire's is based off of. The Galactic Empire superficial Germanic trappings aside is Imperial China. 侯爵 remains Marquis. Dukes remain 公爵 and the original name and titles show this to be the case such as for Grand Duke Herbert. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 08:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::: The Galactic Imperial nobility is adapted from Germanic one. In the original novel, Annerose's title is clearly written in Katakana グラフィン・フォン・グリューネワルト (Gräfin von Grünewald) in Chapter 3 act II. It is the original proof that nobility system in LOGH is the Germanic one, not Chinese. Now let's talk about Grand Duke (大公), this one is also slightly mistranslated. 大公 can be translated both Grand Duke and Archduke, but the "Archduke" will be more accurate in this case, because in the Habsburg's Holy Roman Imperial court, sons of Kaisers held this title. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 14:46, 23 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::It still shows that 公爵 is Duke which is what you tried to contest, which is wrong. The current titles stand and that is final. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 19:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:NobilityTalk:Nobility2021-11-23T09:12:22Z<p>Iracundus: /* Imperial noble ranks */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Separate or combined?==<br />
Are we going to have separate articles for these different factions of the nobility? We have one for [[High Nobles]], but i had figured we could just redirect that to this page, the same way we redirect Fezzan Corridor to Navigation corridors? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::?? I brought this up earlier. I thought you had moved things into different pages? Originally, High nobles/nobles/reformer nobles were all one page. [[User:Canary|Canary]] 14:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Did i really? Maybe i was drunk :(<br />
<br />
:::Do you prefer them all together as well then? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Yeah, I prefer them merged. I think, in general, logh is such a rich setting that we are going to have (and already have) a whole lot of pages, so the simpler we keep things, the better.<br />
<br />
== Military service ==<br />
<br />
I vaguely recall this was either mentioned in an episode or written somewhere, but I don't remember where. Were the nobility exempt from military conscription that the common Imperial citizens had to do? —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 22:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:In {{Hbshbl|8}}, Kircheis talks to Martin Bufholtz, and that is where the information about the mandatory military service of 2 years for commoners comes from. I cannot offhand recall a specific source explicitly saying the nobles were exempt. Things like Grand Duke Herbert including drinking friends among his military advisors suggest however 2 possibilities. The first is that maybe nobles were exempt from the mandatory service. Grand Duke Herbert's initial enjoyment of playing "soldier" seems to suggest this first option though it is not conclusive evidence. The second is they were not exempt but they got safe and easy jobs far from the front lines. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 01:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Princes==<br />
<br />
Just as a note, and my own nitpick with the subs, the title of "Prince" (皇子, as in son of an emperor) actually is never used in the series to the best of my knowledge. The title Crown Prince (皇太子) does get used for the designated heir. The only known instances of the title Grand Duke (大公) all seem to be held by sons of the Kaiser. Grand Duke Herbert, Grand Duke Clementz, Grand Duke (in addition to his Crown Prince title) Richard etc... I wonder whether it is a ''de facto'' title for any princes in the Goldenbaum dynasty. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 03:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps. For example, in East Slavic history, the title of Grand Duke and Prince/Grand Prince are often used interchangeably. In the Russian Empire the sons of the the Tsar were given the title of ''Veliky Knyaz'', which can be translated as either Grand Duke or Grand Prince (although the latter is more accurate). —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 17:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Imperial noble ranks ==<br />
<br />
Adccording to the German nobility system,<br />
<br />
侯爵 (''koushaku'') must be translated to '''Fürst''' (Prince of...). It cannot be traslated as '''Markgraf''' (Marquis) which is just a form of '''Graf''' (Count). There is no tradition of promoting a Graf to a Markgraf (because it is the equal rank). If some Graf to be promoted, they will get promotion to Fürst, like German chancellor Otto von Bismarck.<br />
<br />
Also in Japanese language, they have translated Fürst as 侯爵. For example, "Fürst von Bismarck" has been translated as ビスマルク侯爵.<br>Someone claimed that 侯爵 can be translated as Markgraf, that is wrong. The Japanese has translated Markgraf as 辺境伯 (''henkyou-haku''). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 09:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That might be true in German, but in Gineipaedia, English naming conventions take precedence over German, so 侯爵 would be translated as "Marquis" and not "Fürst". [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Even the Gineipaedia take English naming over German, 侯爵 still should be translated as "Prince" (Fürst) not "Marquis" (Markgraf). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 19:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No, what I meant was that English translations of the Japanese titles take precedence over German translations of the Japanese titles. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 01:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No,侯爵 is a direct copy of the Chinese nobility system and is translated as Marquis, not Prince. Prince as in sons of a king are 王子. Princes as in independent rulers of a principality are translated as 王, and "king" is a more appropriate translation. Neither of these describe the rank of 侯爵 which is the 2nd highest noble title, a step below 公爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 02:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: This topic concerns German, Japanese and English. It have nothing to do with Chinese in the first place. I may give you another example: "Fürst zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst" has been translated ホーエンローエ=シリングスフュルスト侯爵 in Japanese, and Prince of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst in English. That's why I say "侯爵" should be translated "Prince" in English. <br />
<br />
:: The German ''Dukes'' (''Herzog'') has dignity = British Prince of Wales, German ''Feudal Princes'' (''Fürst'') has dignity = British Dukes, The German ''Counts'' (''Graf'') has dignity = British Earls. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 22:52, 22 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::No, it has everything to do with the Chinese noble system because that is both what Japan's system and the Galactic Empire's is based off of. The Galactic Empire superficial Germanic trappings aside is Imperial China. 侯爵 remains Marquis. Dukes remain 公爵 and the original name and titles show this to be the case such as for Grand Duke Herbert. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 08:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:NobilityTalk:Nobility2021-11-23T08:55:39Z<p>Iracundus: /* Imperial noble ranks */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Separate or combined?==<br />
Are we going to have separate articles for these different factions of the nobility? We have one for [[High Nobles]], but i had figured we could just redirect that to this page, the same way we redirect Fezzan Corridor to Navigation corridors? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::?? I brought this up earlier. I thought you had moved things into different pages? Originally, High nobles/nobles/reformer nobles were all one page. [[User:Canary|Canary]] 14:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Did i really? Maybe i was drunk :(<br />
<br />
:::Do you prefer them all together as well then? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Yeah, I prefer them merged. I think, in general, logh is such a rich setting that we are going to have (and already have) a whole lot of pages, so the simpler we keep things, the better.<br />
<br />
== Military service ==<br />
<br />
I vaguely recall this was either mentioned in an episode or written somewhere, but I don't remember where. Were the nobility exempt from military conscription that the common Imperial citizens had to do? —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 22:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:In {{Hbshbl|8}}, Kircheis talks to Martin Bufholtz, and that is where the information about the mandatory military service of 2 years for commoners comes from. I cannot offhand recall a specific source explicitly saying the nobles were exempt. Things like Grand Duke Herbert including drinking friends among his military advisors suggest however 2 possibilities. The first is that maybe nobles were exempt from the mandatory service. Grand Duke Herbert's initial enjoyment of playing "soldier" seems to suggest this first option though it is not conclusive evidence. The second is they were not exempt but they got safe and easy jobs far from the front lines. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 01:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Princes==<br />
<br />
Just as a note, and my own nitpick with the subs, the title of "Prince" (皇子, as in son of an emperor) actually is never used in the series to the best of my knowledge. The title Crown Prince (皇太子) does get used for the designated heir. The only known instances of the title Grand Duke (大公) all seem to be held by sons of the Kaiser. Grand Duke Herbert, Grand Duke Clementz, Grand Duke (in addition to his Crown Prince title) Richard etc... I wonder whether it is a ''de facto'' title for any princes in the Goldenbaum dynasty. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 03:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps. For example, in East Slavic history, the title of Grand Duke and Prince/Grand Prince are often used interchangeably. In the Russian Empire the sons of the the Tsar were given the title of ''Veliky Knyaz'', which can be translated as either Grand Duke or Grand Prince (although the latter is more accurate). —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 17:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Imperial noble ranks ==<br />
<br />
Adccording to the German nobility system,<br />
<br />
侯爵 (''koushaku'') must be translated to '''Fürst''' (Prince of...). It cannot be traslated as '''Markgraf''' (Marquis) which is just a form of '''Graf''' (Count). There is no tradition of promoting a Graf to a Markgraf (because it is the equal rank). If some Graf to be promoted, they will get promotion to Fürst, like German chancellor Otto von Bismarck.<br />
<br />
Also in Japanese language, they have translated Fürst as 侯爵. For example, "Fürst von Bismarck" has been translated as ビスマルク侯爵.<br>Someone claimed that 侯爵 can be translated as Markgraf, that is wrong. The Japanese has translated Markgraf as 辺境伯 (''henkyou-haku''). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 09:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That might be true in German, but in Gineipaedia, English naming conventions take precedence over German, so 侯爵 would be translated as "Marquis" and not "Fürst". [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Even the Gineipaedia take English naming over German, 侯爵 still should be translated as "Prince" (Fürst) not "Marquis" (Markgraf). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 19:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No, what I meant was that English translations of the Japanese titles take precedence over German translations of the Japanese titles. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 01:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No,侯爵 is a direct copy of the Chinese nobility system and is translated as Marquis, not Prince. Prince as in sons of a king are 王子. Princes as in independent rulers of a principality are translated as 王, and "king" is a more appropriate translation. Neither of these describe the rank of 侯爵 which is the 2nd highest noble title, a step below 公爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 02:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: This topic concerns German, Japanese and English. It have nothing to do with Chinese in the first place. I may give you another example: "Fürst zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst" has been translated ホーエンローエ=シリングスフュルスト侯爵 in Japanese, and Prince of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst in English. That's why I say "侯爵" should be translated "Prince" in English. <br />
<br />
:: The German ''Dukes'' (''Herzog'') has dignity = British Prince of Wales, German ''Feudal Princes'' (''Fürst'') has dignity = British Dukes, The German ''Counts'' (''Graf'') has dignity = British Earls. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 22:52, 22 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::No, it has everything to do with the Chinese noble system because that is both what Japan's system and the Galactic Empire's is based off of. The Galactic Empire superficial Germanic trappings aside is Imperial China. 侯爵 remains Marquis. Dukes remain 公爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 08:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:NobilityTalk:Nobility2021-11-23T08:53:58Z<p>Iracundus: /* Imperial noble ranks */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Separate or combined?==<br />
Are we going to have separate articles for these different factions of the nobility? We have one for [[High Nobles]], but i had figured we could just redirect that to this page, the same way we redirect Fezzan Corridor to Navigation corridors? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::?? I brought this up earlier. I thought you had moved things into different pages? Originally, High nobles/nobles/reformer nobles were all one page. [[User:Canary|Canary]] 14:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Did i really? Maybe i was drunk :(<br />
<br />
:::Do you prefer them all together as well then? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Yeah, I prefer them merged. I think, in general, logh is such a rich setting that we are going to have (and already have) a whole lot of pages, so the simpler we keep things, the better.<br />
<br />
== Military service ==<br />
<br />
I vaguely recall this was either mentioned in an episode or written somewhere, but I don't remember where. Were the nobility exempt from military conscription that the common Imperial citizens had to do? —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 22:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:In {{Hbshbl|8}}, Kircheis talks to Martin Bufholtz, and that is where the information about the mandatory military service of 2 years for commoners comes from. I cannot offhand recall a specific source explicitly saying the nobles were exempt. Things like Grand Duke Herbert including drinking friends among his military advisors suggest however 2 possibilities. The first is that maybe nobles were exempt from the mandatory service. Grand Duke Herbert's initial enjoyment of playing "soldier" seems to suggest this first option though it is not conclusive evidence. The second is they were not exempt but they got safe and easy jobs far from the front lines. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 01:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Princes==<br />
<br />
Just as a note, and my own nitpick with the subs, the title of "Prince" (皇子, as in son of an emperor) actually is never used in the series to the best of my knowledge. The title Crown Prince (皇太子) does get used for the designated heir. The only known instances of the title Grand Duke (大公) all seem to be held by sons of the Kaiser. Grand Duke Herbert, Grand Duke Clementz, Grand Duke (in addition to his Crown Prince title) Richard etc... I wonder whether it is a ''de facto'' title for any princes in the Goldenbaum dynasty. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 03:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps. For example, in East Slavic history, the title of Grand Duke and Prince/Grand Prince are often used interchangeably. In the Russian Empire the sons of the the Tsar were given the title of ''Veliky Knyaz'', which can be translated as either Grand Duke or Grand Prince (although the latter is more accurate). —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 17:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Imperial noble ranks ==<br />
<br />
Adccording to the German nobility system,<br />
<br />
侯爵 (''koushaku'') must be translated to '''Fürst''' (Prince of...). It cannot be traslated as '''Markgraf''' (Marquis) which is just a form of '''Graf''' (Count). There is no tradition of promoting a Graf to a Markgraf (because it is the equal rank). If some Graf to be promoted, they will get promotion to Fürst, like German chancellor Otto von Bismarck.<br />
<br />
Also in Japanese language, they have translated Fürst as 侯爵. For example, "Fürst von Bismarck" has been translated as ビスマルク侯爵.<br>Someone claimed that 侯爵 can be translated as Markgraf, that is wrong. The Japanese has translated Markgraf as 辺境伯 (''henkyou-haku''). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 09:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That might be true in German, but in Gineipaedia, English naming conventions take precedence over German, so 侯爵 would be translated as "Marquis" and not "Fürst". [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Even the Gineipaedia take English naming over German, 侯爵 still should be translated as "Prince" (Fürst) not "Marquis" (Markgraf). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 19:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No, what I meant was that English translations of the Japanese titles take precedence over German translations of the Japanese titles. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 01:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No,侯爵 is a direct copy of the Chinese nobility system and is translated as Marquis, not Prince. Prince as in sons of a king are 王子. Princes as in independent rulers of a principality are translated as 王, and "king" is a more appropriate translation. Neither of these describe the rank of 侯爵 which is the 2nd highest noble title, a step below 公爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 02:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:: This topic concerns German, Japanese and English. It have nothing to do with Chinese in the first place. I may give you another example: "Fürst zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst" has been translated ホーエンローエ=シリングスフュルスト侯爵 in Japanese, and Prince of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst in English. That's why I say "侯爵" should be translated "Prince" in English. <br />
<br />
:: The German ''Dukes'' (''Herzog'') has dignity = British Prince of Wales, German ''Feudal Princes'' (''Fürst'') has dignity = British Dukes, The German ''Counts'' (''Graf'') has dignity = British Earls. [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 22:52, 22 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::No, it has everything to do with the Chinese noble system because that is both what Japan's system and the Galactic Empire's is based off of. 侯爵 remains Marquis. Dukes remain 公爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 08:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:NobilityTalk:Nobility2021-11-06T02:22:17Z<p>Iracundus: /* Imperial noble ranks */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Separate or combined?==<br />
Are we going to have separate articles for these different factions of the nobility? We have one for [[High Nobles]], but i had figured we could just redirect that to this page, the same way we redirect Fezzan Corridor to Navigation corridors? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::?? I brought this up earlier. I thought you had moved things into different pages? Originally, High nobles/nobles/reformer nobles were all one page. [[User:Canary|Canary]] 14:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Did i really? Maybe i was drunk :(<br />
<br />
:::Do you prefer them all together as well then? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Yeah, I prefer them merged. I think, in general, logh is such a rich setting that we are going to have (and already have) a whole lot of pages, so the simpler we keep things, the better.<br />
<br />
== Military service ==<br />
<br />
I vaguely recall this was either mentioned in an episode or written somewhere, but I don't remember where. Were the nobility exempt from military conscription that the common Imperial citizens had to do? —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 22:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:In {{Hbshbl|8}}, Kircheis talks to Martin Bufholtz, and that is where the information about the mandatory military service of 2 years for commoners comes from. I cannot offhand recall a specific source explicitly saying the nobles were exempt. Things like Grand Duke Herbert including drinking friends among his military advisors suggest however 2 possibilities. The first is that maybe nobles were exempt from the mandatory service. Grand Duke Herbert's initial enjoyment of playing "soldier" seems to suggest this first option though it is not conclusive evidence. The second is they were not exempt but they got safe and easy jobs far from the front lines. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 01:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Princes==<br />
<br />
Just as a note, and my own nitpick with the subs, the title of "Prince" (皇子, as in son of an emperor) actually is never used in the series to the best of my knowledge. The title Crown Prince (皇太子) does get used for the designated heir. The only known instances of the title Grand Duke (大公) all seem to be held by sons of the Kaiser. Grand Duke Herbert, Grand Duke Clementz, Grand Duke (in addition to his Crown Prince title) Richard etc... I wonder whether it is a ''de facto'' title for any princes in the Goldenbaum dynasty. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 03:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps. For example, in East Slavic history, the title of Grand Duke and Prince/Grand Prince are often used interchangeably. In the Russian Empire the sons of the the Tsar were given the title of ''Veliky Knyaz'', which can be translated as either Grand Duke or Grand Prince (although the latter is more accurate). —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 17:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Imperial noble ranks ==<br />
<br />
Adccording to the German nobility system,<br />
<br />
侯爵 (''koushaku'') must be translated to '''Fürst''' (Prince of...). It cannot be traslated as '''Markgraf''' (Marquis) which is just a form of '''Graf''' (Count). There is no tradition of promoting a Graf to a Markgraf (because it is the equal rank). If some Graf to be promoted, they will get promotion to Fürst, like German chancellor Otto von Bismarck.<br />
<br />
Also in Japanese language, they have translated Fürst as 侯爵. For example, "Fürst von Bismarck" has been translated as ビスマルク侯爵.<br>Someone claimed that 侯爵 can be translated as Markgraf, that is wrong. The Japanese has translated Markgraf as 辺境伯 (''henkyou-haku''). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 09:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That might be true in German, but in Gineipaedia, English naming conventions take precedence over German, so 侯爵 would be translated as "Marquis" and not "Fürst". [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Even the Gineipaedia take English naming over German, 侯爵 still should be translated as "Prince" (Fürst) not "Marquis" (Markgraf). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 19:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No, what I meant was that English translations of the Japanese titles take precedence over German translations of the Japanese titles. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 01:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No,侯爵 is a direct copy of the Chinese nobility system and is translated as Marquis, not Prince. Prince as in sons of a king are 王子. Princes as in independent rulers of a principality are translated as 王, and "king" is a more appropriate translation. Neither of these describe the rank of 侯爵 which is the 2nd highest noble title, a step below 公爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 02:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:NobilityTalk:Nobility2021-11-06T02:18:55Z<p>Iracundus: /* Imperial noble ranks */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Separate or combined?==<br />
Are we going to have separate articles for these different factions of the nobility? We have one for [[High Nobles]], but i had figured we could just redirect that to this page, the same way we redirect Fezzan Corridor to Navigation corridors? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::?? I brought this up earlier. I thought you had moved things into different pages? Originally, High nobles/nobles/reformer nobles were all one page. [[User:Canary|Canary]] 14:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Did i really? Maybe i was drunk :(<br />
<br />
:::Do you prefer them all together as well then? <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 14:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Yeah, I prefer them merged. I think, in general, logh is such a rich setting that we are going to have (and already have) a whole lot of pages, so the simpler we keep things, the better.<br />
<br />
== Military service ==<br />
<br />
I vaguely recall this was either mentioned in an episode or written somewhere, but I don't remember where. Were the nobility exempt from military conscription that the common Imperial citizens had to do? —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 22:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:In {{Hbshbl|8}}, Kircheis talks to Martin Bufholtz, and that is where the information about the mandatory military service of 2 years for commoners comes from. I cannot offhand recall a specific source explicitly saying the nobles were exempt. Things like Grand Duke Herbert including drinking friends among his military advisors suggest however 2 possibilities. The first is that maybe nobles were exempt from the mandatory service. Grand Duke Herbert's initial enjoyment of playing "soldier" seems to suggest this first option though it is not conclusive evidence. The second is they were not exempt but they got safe and easy jobs far from the front lines. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 01:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Princes==<br />
<br />
Just as a note, and my own nitpick with the subs, the title of "Prince" (皇子, as in son of an emperor) actually is never used in the series to the best of my knowledge. The title Crown Prince (皇太子) does get used for the designated heir. The only known instances of the title Grand Duke (大公) all seem to be held by sons of the Kaiser. Grand Duke Herbert, Grand Duke Clementz, Grand Duke (in addition to his Crown Prince title) Richard etc... I wonder whether it is a ''de facto'' title for any princes in the Goldenbaum dynasty. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 03:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Perhaps. For example, in East Slavic history, the title of Grand Duke and Prince/Grand Prince are often used interchangeably. In the Russian Empire the sons of the the Tsar were given the title of ''Veliky Knyaz'', which can be translated as either Grand Duke or Grand Prince (although the latter is more accurate). —[[User:Goldenbaum Loyalist|Goldenbaum Loyalist]] 17:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)<br />
<br />
== Imperial noble ranks ==<br />
<br />
Adccording to the German nobility system,<br />
<br />
侯爵 (''koushaku'') must be translated to '''Fürst''' (Prince of...). It cannot be traslated as '''Markgraf''' (Marquis) which is just a form of '''Graf''' (Count). There is no tradition of promoting a Graf to a Markgraf (because it is the equal rank). If some Graf to be promoted, they will get promotion to Fürst, like German chancellor Otto von Bismarck.<br />
<br />
Also in Japanese language, they have translated Fürst as 侯爵. For example, "Fürst von Bismarck" has been translated as ビスマルク侯爵.<br>Someone claimed that 侯爵 can be translated as Markgraf, that is wrong. The Japanese has translated Markgraf as 辺境伯 (''henkyou-haku''). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 09:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:That might be true in German, but in Gineipaedia, English naming conventions take precedence over German, so 侯爵 would be translated as "Marquis" and not "Fürst". [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
: Even the Gineipaedia take English naming over German, 侯爵 still should be translated as "Prince" (Fürst) not "Marquis" (Markgraf). [[User:WalkerEmp|WalkerEmp]] 19:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No, what I meant was that English translations of the Japanese titles take precedence over German translations of the Japanese titles. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 01:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::No,侯爵 is a direct copy of the Chinese nobility system and is translated as Marquis, not Prince. Prince as in sons of a king are 王子. Princes as in independent rulers of a principality are translated as 王, and "king" is a more appropriate translation. Neither of these describe the rank of 侯爵 which is a step below 公爵. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 02:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/NobilityNobility2021-10-17T12:21:49Z<p>Iracundus: /* Noble Ranks */</p>
<hr />
<div>[[File:High Nobility.jpg|right|300px]]<br />
An aristocratic social class founded by [[Rudolf von Goldenbaum]] in {{d|9|rc}} to serve the [[Galactic Empire]], the nobility held most of the political and economic power in the Empire during the rule of the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]].<br />
<br />
==High Nobles==<br />
The High Nobility was the upper echelon of the Noble social class in the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]]'s social hierarchy. High Nobles were men and women from the oldest and most powerful noble families in the [[Galactic Empire]]. It was from the High Nobility that most of the Empire's most powerful political leaders hailed from, not because of merit but because of blood.<br />
<br />
Ironically, when [[Rudolph von Goldenbaum]] first established the aristocracy, it was something of a meritocracy: men and women of exceptional ability could, at times, be elevated to noble rank. This provided early Imperial society with a degree of upward social mobility, allowing the culture of the Empire to stay dynamic. Eventually, however, the nobility became a stagnant social class, which could only be inherited through blood. This gradually increased the resentment of the lower classes, and eventually led to the Exodus of [[Arle Heinnesen]], and a rise in republican protestors and social reformers. The High Nobility, however, was ruthless in destroying anything that might endanger its authority.<br />
<br />
In the [[Imperial Civil War]], most of the High Nobility sided with Duke [[Otho von Braunschweig]]. At the end of the civil war, [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] abolished the privileges of the aristocracy, stripping the nobles who rebelled their titles, positions and property.<br />
<br />
==Low Nobles==<br />
Nobility in name only, low nobles were poor aristocratic families of limited economic means. They did not necessarily own land grants, or hold positions of power within the government. These lower-class nobles were considered something of an embarrassment by the high nobles.<br />
<br />
[[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] was born into the von Müsel family, which had the lowest rank of nobility just one step above commoner status, Imperial Knight.<br />
<br />
==Reformer Nobles==<br />
Ostensibly drawn from both the high and low nobility, reformer nobles were aristocrats who advocated the democractic reform of the [[Empire]] and some, possibly, the abolition of the aristocratic class and the position of Emperor. During the [[Imperial Civil War]], the reformer nobles were persuaded to side with [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] by [[Hildegarde von Mariendorf]], the head of the Mariendorf family. Eventually, all of the high and lower nobles that sided with the Lohengramm administration kept their aristocratic titles and properties, some even participating in the new Imperial cabinet or as members of the New Imperial Court.<br />
<br />
After Reinhard seized power, most reformer nobles expressed praise for Reinhard's reforms, while others expressed concern over his unwillingness to abolish the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty|Goldenbaum Monarchy]]. Among those were [[Karl Braque]] and [[Eugen Richter]], two former nobles that gave up their titles to serve Reinhard in a reformed government.<br />
<br />
==Noble Ranks==<br />
The known noble ranks in the Empire are (in descending order):<br />
* Crown Prince (Japanese: '''皇太子'''), designated heir to the Empire. This rank seems to have been held in conjunction with the rank of Grand Duke.<br />
* Grand Duke (Japanese: '''大公'''), this rank was given to princes once they reached adulthood and thus was only given to those directly related to the Kaiser.<br />
* Duke (Japanese: '''公爵''')<br />
* Marquis (Japanese: '''侯爵'''), could also be Markgraf <br />
* Count (Japanese: '''伯爵''') <br />
* Viscount (Japanese: '''子爵''') <br />
* Baron (Japanese: '''男爵''') <br />
* Imperial Knight (Japanese: '''帝国騎士''') also known as ''Reichsritter'', the lowest noble title, barely above commoner.<br />
<br />
({{logh|009}}, {{hbshbl|02}})<br />
<br />
The rank of Imperial Knight had previously been sold by the Imperial family when in need of funds, but by the time of [[Friedrich IV]], this means of fund raising was not possible as the title was no longer valuable. ([[Legend of Galactic Heroes Gaiden Volume 1: The Star Crusher]]: 'Cobweb')<br />
<br />
[[Category:Nobility| Nobility]]<br />
[[Category:Galactic Empire]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/NobilityNobility2021-10-13T07:36:38Z<p>Iracundus: /* Noble Ranks */ 侯爵 can also be Markgraf if going for something Germanic</p>
<hr />
<div>[[File:High Nobility.jpg|right|300px]]<br />
An aristocratic social class founded by [[Rudolf von Goldenbaum]] in {{d|9|rc}} to serve the [[Galactic Empire]], the nobility held most of the political and economic power in the Empire during the rule of the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]].<br />
<br />
==High Nobles==<br />
The High Nobility was the upper echelon of the Noble social class in the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]]'s social hierarchy. High Nobles were men and women from the oldest and most powerful noble families in the [[Galactic Empire]]. It was from the High Nobility that most of the Empire's most powerful political leaders hailed from, not because of merit but because of blood.<br />
<br />
Ironically, when [[Rudolph von Goldenbaum]] first established the aristocracy, it was something of a meritocracy: men and women of exceptional ability could, at times, be elevated to noble rank. This provided early Imperial society with a degree of upward social mobility, allowing the culture of the Empire to stay dynamic. Eventually, however, the nobility became a stagnant social class, which could only be inherited through blood. This gradually increased the resentment of the lower classes, and eventually led to the Exodus of [[Arle Heinnesen]], and a rise in republican protestors and social reformers. The High Nobility, however, was ruthless in destroying anything that might endanger its authority.<br />
<br />
In the [[Imperial Civil War]], most of the High Nobility sided with Duke [[Otho von Braunschweig]]. At the end of the civil war, [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] abolished the privileges of the aristocracy, stripping the nobles who rebelled their titles, positions and property.<br />
<br />
==Low Nobles==<br />
Nobility in name only, low nobles were poor aristocratic families of limited economic means. They did not necessarily own land grants, or hold positions of power within the government. These lower-class nobles were considered something of an embarrassment by the high nobles.<br />
<br />
[[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] was born into the von Müsel family, which had the lowest rank of nobility just one step above commoner status, Imperial Knight.<br />
<br />
==Reformer Nobles==<br />
Ostensibly drawn from both the high and low nobility, reformer nobles were aristocrats who advocated the democractic reform of the [[Empire]] and some, possibly, the abolition of the aristocratic class and the position of Emperor. During the [[Imperial Civil War]], the reformer nobles were persuaded to side with [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] by [[Hildegarde von Mariendorf]], the head of the Mariendorf family. Eventually, all of the high and lower nobles that sided with the Lohengramm administration kept their aristocratic titles and properties, some even participating in the new Imperial cabinet or as members of the New Imperial Court.<br />
<br />
After Reinhard seized power, most reformer nobles expressed praise for Reinhard's reforms, while others expressed concern over his unwillingness to abolish the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty|Goldenbaum Monarchy]]. Among those were [[Karl Braque]] and [[Eugen Richter]], two former nobles that gave up their titles to serve Reinhard in a reformed government.<br />
<br />
==Noble Ranks==<br />
The known noble ranks in the Empire are (in descending order):<br />
* Crown Prince (Japanese: '''皇太子'''), designated heir to the Empire. This rank seems to have been held in conjunction with the rank of Grand Duke.<br />
* Grand Duke (Japanese: '''大公'''), the only known instances of this rank were all sons of the Kaiser.<br />
* Duke (Japanese: '''公爵''')<br />
* Marquis (Japanese: '''侯爵'''), could also be Markgraf <br />
* Count (Japanese: '''伯爵''') <br />
* Viscount (Japanese: '''子爵''') <br />
* Baron (Japanese: '''男爵''') <br />
* Imperial Knight (Japanese: '''帝国騎士''') also known as ''Reichsritter'', the lowest noble title, barely above commoner.<br />
<br />
({{logh|009}}, {{hbshbl|02}})<br />
<br />
The rank of Imperial Knight had previously been sold by the Imperial family when in need of funds, but by the time of [[Friedrich IV]], this means of fund raising was not possible as the title was no longer valuable. ([[Legend of Galactic Heroes Gaiden Volume 1: The Star Crusher]]: 'Cobweb')<br />
<br />
[[Category:Nobility| Nobility]]<br />
[[Category:Galactic Empire]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/NobilityNobility2021-10-13T07:29:54Z<p>Iracundus: /* Noble Ranks */ *Naming conventions in English not German. Also 侯爵 is best translated to Marquis</p>
<hr />
<div>[[File:High Nobility.jpg|right|300px]]<br />
An aristocratic social class founded by [[Rudolf von Goldenbaum]] in {{d|9|rc}} to serve the [[Galactic Empire]], the nobility held most of the political and economic power in the Empire during the rule of the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]].<br />
<br />
==High Nobles==<br />
The High Nobility was the upper echelon of the Noble social class in the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]]'s social hierarchy. High Nobles were men and women from the oldest and most powerful noble families in the [[Galactic Empire]]. It was from the High Nobility that most of the Empire's most powerful political leaders hailed from, not because of merit but because of blood.<br />
<br />
Ironically, when [[Rudolph von Goldenbaum]] first established the aristocracy, it was something of a meritocracy: men and women of exceptional ability could, at times, be elevated to noble rank. This provided early Imperial society with a degree of upward social mobility, allowing the culture of the Empire to stay dynamic. Eventually, however, the nobility became a stagnant social class, which could only be inherited through blood. This gradually increased the resentment of the lower classes, and eventually led to the Exodus of [[Arle Heinnesen]], and a rise in republican protestors and social reformers. The High Nobility, however, was ruthless in destroying anything that might endanger its authority.<br />
<br />
In the [[Imperial Civil War]], most of the High Nobility sided with Duke [[Otho von Braunschweig]]. At the end of the civil war, [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] abolished the privileges of the aristocracy, stripping the nobles who rebelled their titles, positions and property.<br />
<br />
==Low Nobles==<br />
Nobility in name only, low nobles were poor aristocratic families of limited economic means. They did not necessarily own land grants, or hold positions of power within the government. These lower-class nobles were considered something of an embarrassment by the high nobles.<br />
<br />
[[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] was born into the von Müsel family, which had the lowest rank of nobility just one step above commoner status, Imperial Knight.<br />
<br />
==Reformer Nobles==<br />
Ostensibly drawn from both the high and low nobility, reformer nobles were aristocrats who advocated the democractic reform of the [[Empire]] and some, possibly, the abolition of the aristocratic class and the position of Emperor. During the [[Imperial Civil War]], the reformer nobles were persuaded to side with [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] by [[Hildegarde von Mariendorf]], the head of the Mariendorf family. Eventually, all of the high and lower nobles that sided with the Lohengramm administration kept their aristocratic titles and properties, some even participating in the new Imperial cabinet or as members of the New Imperial Court.<br />
<br />
After Reinhard seized power, most reformer nobles expressed praise for Reinhard's reforms, while others expressed concern over his unwillingness to abolish the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty|Goldenbaum Monarchy]]. Among those were [[Karl Braque]] and [[Eugen Richter]], two former nobles that gave up their titles to serve Reinhard in a reformed government.<br />
<br />
==Noble Ranks==<br />
The known noble ranks in the Empire are (in descending order):<br />
* Crown Prince (Japanese: '''皇太子'''), designated heir to the Empire. This rank seems to have been held in conjunction with the rank of Grand Duke.<br />
* Grand Duke (Japanese: '''大公'''), the only known instances of this rank were all sons of the Kaiser.<br />
* Duke (Japanese: '''公爵''')<br />
* Marquis (Japanese: '''侯爵''') <br />
* Count (Japanese: '''伯爵''') <br />
* Viscount (Japanese: '''子爵''') <br />
* Baron (Japanese: '''男爵''') <br />
* Imperial Knight (Japanese: '''帝国騎士''') also known as ''Reichsritter'', the lowest noble title, barely above commoner.<br />
<br />
({{logh|009}}, {{hbshbl|02}})<br />
<br />
The rank of Imperial Knight had previously been sold by the Imperial family when in need of funds, but by the time of [[Friedrich IV]], this means of fund raising was not possible as the title was no longer valuable. ([[Legend of Galactic Heroes Gaiden Volume 1: The Star Crusher]]: 'Cobweb')<br />
<br />
[[Category:Nobility| Nobility]]<br />
[[Category:Galactic Empire]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Wilhelm_von_LittenheimWilhelm von Littenheim2021-10-13T07:26:49Z<p>Iracundus: Reverted edits by WalkerEmp (talk) to last revision by Goldenbaum Loyalist</p>
<hr />
<div>{{infobox/character<br />
| image-top = Littenheim.jpg<br />
| caption-top = Marquis '''Littenheim''' ({{d|797|uc}})<br />
| gender = Male<br />
| affiliation = [[Galactic Empire]] ([[Lippstadt League]])<br />
| rank = [[Military ranks of the Galactic Empire#High admiral|High admiral]] ([[Lippstadt League]])<br />
| flagship = ''[[Ostmark]]''<br />
| status = Deceased (murder)<br />
| died = {{d|797|uc}}<br />
| spouse = [[Christine]]<br />
| children = [[Sabine von Littenheim]]<br />
| relatives = [[Friedrich IV]]<br />[[Herxheimer]]<br />
| actor = [[Terashima Mikio]] (Deceased)<br />
}}<br />
'''Wilhelm von Littenheim III''' (Japanese: '''ウィルヘルム・フォン・リッテンハイム3世''') was an [[Galactic Empire|Imperial]] [[Nobility|Marquis]], son-in-law to Kaiser [[Friedrich IV]] as the husband of his daughter Princess [[Christine]], and one of the most influential nobles at court during the late [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]]. Like his rival and later ally Duke [[Otho von Braunschweig]], he was a staunch defender of the old order in the Empire and opposed [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] during the [[Imperial Civil War]]. However, Littenheim had no real martial talents and was defeated by {{rank|imperial|high admiral}} [[Siegfried Kircheis]], whose fleet had 10,000 fewer ships.<br />
<br />
Marquis Littenheim was killed by one of his former subordinates while at [[Garmisch Fortress]] shortly after his defeat in battle.<br />
<br />
==History==<br />
===Early life===<br />
[[File:Herxheimer and Littenheim.png|190px|thumb|left|Littenheim with his relative, Herxheimer ({{d|792|uc}})]]<br />
Marquis Littenheim was born into one of the most powerful noble houses in the Empire and became involved in politics during the late [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]]. He eventually married Princess [[Christine]], one of the two daughters of Emperor [[Friedrich IV]], becoming a member of the imperial family. The Marquis supported one of his relatives, Count [[Herxheimer]], in a dispute with the husband of Viscountess [[Dorothea von Schafhausen]] over mining rights in {{d|792|uc}}. Once he found out that Reinhard von Lohengramm, who was rising through the ranks of the [[Imperial Armed Forces|Imperial Fleet]] at the time, was going to duel in the elderly viscount's place against Herxheimer's duelist, Littenheim tried to get him killed by hiring a professional assassin. The assassin ended up failing. ({{logh|016}}, {{hbshbl|08}})<br />
<br />
Later on when Herxheimer found out that Littenheim's daughter [[Sabine von Littenheim|Sabine]] had a genetic disease that would make her ineligible to take the throne, Littenheim had no qualms in betraying his relative and trying to have him killed. This caused Herxheimer to attempt to flee to the [[Free Planets Alliance]] and he died in an accident aboard his ship during the attempt. Although Reinhard von Lohengramm, who commanded the mission to recover the defecting noble before he could reach the Alliance, learned of the secret, he did not give it away. ({{ret|03}})<br />
<br />
He had a longstanding feud with Duke [[Otho von Braunschweig]] as both were son-in-laws to Kaiser Friedrich IV. As Friedrich IV had no named heirs, this made both Marquis Littenheim and Duke Braunschweig, through the proxies of their children, contenders for control of the throne of the [[Galactic Empire]]. Along with Braunschweig and the other high nobles, he was also a major opponent of [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] and his sister [[Annerose]], the Countess Grünewald, at court. ({{logh|016|018}}, {{hbshbl|08}})<br />
<br />
===Imperial Civil War===<br />
When Kaiser [[Friedrich IV]] suddenly died in November {{d|796|uc}}, Marquis Littenheim's fourteen-year old daughter, [[Sabine von Littenheim]], became a contender for the throne. However, the acting Imperial prime minister [[Klaus von Lichtenlade]] used his authority as the head of the government and the holder of the [[Imperial Seal]] to name the son of the Friedrich's deceased heir, Crown Prince [[Ludwig]], the next emperor [[Erwin Josef II]]. He wanted to prevent Braunschweig or Littenheim from usurping the power he enjoyed and made an alliance with Reinhard von Lohengramm, who was then a {{rank|imperial|fleet admiral}}, to keep the high nobles in check. Refusing to give up, Marquis Littenheim allied himself with the Braunschweig family, who had supported the Duke Otto von Braunschweig's own daughter, [[Elisabeth von Braunschweig]], for the throne. As tensions increased it became clear that the situation was deteriorating towards civil war between the Lohengramm–Lichtenlade axis and the new [[Lippstadt League|Braunschweig–Littenheim alliance]], which had the support of the majority of the high nobility. A group of nearly four thousand nobles met at Braunschweig's estate in Lippstadt forest where they formed a coalition rivaling Lohengramm, with Littenheim becoming its deputy leader. ({{logh|016|018}})<br />
<br />
A failed assassination attempt on Lohengramm by one of Duke Braunschweig's subordinates set off a chain of events that forced Littenheim and the other nobles to abandon the [[Imperial City]]. Although some of them were caught in orbit of [[Odin]] by a [[Wahlen Fleet|fleet]] under {{rank|imperial|admiral}} [[August Samuel Wahlen]], Littenheim was among those who escaped. The Marquis met up with the rest of the Lippstadt forces at their main base of [[Geiersburg Fortress]], where he was granted the rank of {{rank|imperial|high admiral|lc}} in their Allied Forces. As the [[Imperial Civil War]] broke out, Duke Braunschweig allowed Marquis Littenheim to take a third of the Lippstadt forces ostensibly to regain control over rebellious frontier fiefs. Braunschweig's ulterior motive was to get Littenheim away from Geiersberg Fortress. Littenheim based his fleet at [[Garmisch Fortress]] but was defeated at the [[Battle of Kyffhäuser]] by [[Siegfried Kircheis]], largely due to his fleet's poor organization and lack of a unified command structure. He was killed in a bombing by a disgruntled subordinate at Garmisch Fortress. ({{logh|022}})<br />
<br />
==Personal life==<br />
It was a suppressed fact that the Marquis's daughter [[Sabine von Littenheim|Sabine]], as well as [[Elisabeth von Braunschweig]], had inherited a genetic disease via their mothers, who were sisters. Under the [[Inferior Genes Exclusion Act]], this would have made Sabine and Elisabeth ineligible for the throne, and would have disgraced both Duke Braunschweig and Marquis Littenheim. The Marquis in particular attempted to assassinate those that found out the truth, such as his relative, Count Herxheimer, who attempted to defect to the [[Free Planets Alliance]]. ({{ret|04}})<br />
<br />
==Appendices==<br />
===Appearances===<br />
<div class="appear"><br />
*{{logh}}<br />
**{{e|016}} (first appearance)<br />
**{{e|018}}<br />
**{{e|022}} (death)<br />
*{{duel}}<br />
**{{e|2|duel}}<br />
**{{e|3|duel}}<br />
**{{e|4|duel}}<br />
*{{hbshbl}}<br />
**{{e|8|hbshbl}}<br />
</div><br />
<br />
===Name variations===<br />
*'''Wilhelmi von Littenheim''' (<abbr title="LaserDisc">LD</abbr> subtitles)<br />
<br />
===Background information===<br />
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_(name) Wilhelm] is a German given name meaning "vehement protector", and the origin of the English name William. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littenheim Littenheim] is a commune in the Bas-Rhin department in Alsace-Champagne-Ardenne-Lorraine in north-eastern France.<br />
<br />
{{navbox/soldiers/Empire|collapsed}}<br />
<br />
[[Category:Lippstadt League|Littenheim wilhelm von]]<br />
[[Category:Soldiers|Littenheim wilhelm von]]<br />
[[Category:Imperial citizens|Littenheim wilhelm von]]<br />
[[Category:Nobility|Littenheim wilhelm von]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/NobilityNobility2021-10-13T07:22:14Z<p>Iracundus: </p>
<hr />
<div>[[File:High Nobility.jpg|right|300px]]<br />
An aristocratic social class founded by [[Rudolf von Goldenbaum]] in {{d|9|rc}} to serve the [[Galactic Empire]], the nobility held most of the political and economic power in the Empire during the rule of the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]].<br />
<br />
==High Nobles==<br />
The High Nobility was the upper echelon of the Noble social class in the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]]'s social hierarchy. High Nobles were men and women from the oldest and most powerful noble families in the [[Galactic Empire]]. It was from the High Nobility that most of the Empire's most powerful political leaders hailed from, not because of merit but because of blood.<br />
<br />
Ironically, when [[Rudolph von Goldenbaum]] first established the aristocracy, it was something of a meritocracy: men and women of exceptional ability could, at times, be elevated to noble rank. This provided early Imperial society with a degree of upward social mobility, allowing the culture of the Empire to stay dynamic. Eventually, however, the nobility became a stagnant social class, which could only be inherited through blood. This gradually increased the resentment of the lower classes, and eventually led to the Exodus of [[Arle Heinnesen]], and a rise in republican protestors and social reformers. The High Nobility, however, was ruthless in destroying anything that might endanger its authority.<br />
<br />
In the [[Imperial Civil War]], most of the High Nobility sided with Duke [[Otho von Braunschweig]]. At the end of the civil war, [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] abolished the privileges of the aristocracy, stripping the nobles who rebelled their titles, positions and property.<br />
<br />
==Low Nobles==<br />
Nobility in name only, low nobles were poor aristocratic families of limited economic means. They did not necessarily own land grants, or hold positions of power within the government. These lower-class nobles were considered something of an embarrassment by the high nobles.<br />
<br />
[[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] was born into the von Müsel family, which had the lowest rank of nobility just one step above commoner status, Imperial Knight.<br />
<br />
==Reformer Nobles==<br />
Ostensibly drawn from both the high and low nobility, reformer nobles were aristocrats who advocated the democractic reform of the [[Empire]] and some, possibly, the abolition of the aristocratic class and the position of Emperor. During the [[Imperial Civil War]], the reformer nobles were persuaded to side with [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] by [[Hildegarde von Mariendorf]], the head of the Mariendorf family. Eventually, all of the high and lower nobles that sided with the Lohengramm administration kept their aristocratic titles and properties, some even participating in the new Imperial cabinet or as members of the New Imperial Court.<br />
<br />
After Reinhard seized power, most reformer nobles expressed praise for Reinhard's reforms, while others expressed concern over his unwillingness to abolish the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty|Goldenbaum Monarchy]]. Among those were [[Karl Braque]] and [[Eugen Richter]], two former nobles that gave up their titles to serve Reinhard in a reformed government.<br />
<br />
==Noble Ranks==<br />
The known noble ranks in the Empire are (in descending order):<br />
* Crown Prince (Japanese: '''皇太子'''), designated heir to the Empire. This rank seems to have been held in conjunction with the rank of Grand Duke.<br />
* Grand Duke (Japanese: '''大公'''), the only known instances of this rank were all sons of the Kaiser.<br />
* Duke (Japanese: '''公爵''')<br />
* Fürst (Japanese: '''侯爵''') mistranslated to Marquis<br />
* Graf (Japanese: '''伯爵''') translated to Count<br />
* Burggraf (Japanese: '''子爵''') translated to Viscount<br />
* Freiherr (Japanese: '''男爵''') translated to Baron<br />
* Reichsritter (Japanese: '''帝国騎士''') also known as ''Imperial Knight'', the lowest noble title, barely above commoner.<br />
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({{logh|009}}, {{hbshbl|02}})<br />
<br />
The rank of Imperial Knight had previously been sold by the Imperial family when in need of funds, but by the time of [[Friedrich IV]], this means of fund raising was not possible as the title was no longer valuable. ([[Legend of Galactic Heroes Gaiden Volume 1: The Star Crusher]]: 'Cobweb')<br />
<br />
[[Category:Nobility| Nobility]]<br />
[[Category:Galactic Empire]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/User:IzumiGreenUser:IzumiGreen2021-10-13T07:19:40Z<p>Iracundus: </p>
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<div>Hello Dear GINEI Fans,<br />
I'm Izumi Green from China. I'm so happy to see such a perfect Paedia on LOGH! Thanks so much!<br />
I can't decide what to write on this page. Hmm... please allow me to tell a short story.<br />
<br />
In China, there's a bbs set up by several LOGH fans in 2000 CE. It's still alive but not very active. (bbs.seaofstar.net)<br />
<br />
Some users of Seaofstar tried to set up a pedia for LOGH (in Chinese, of course), but failed because of lack of volunteers. And that was in year 2010, when GINEIPAEDIA is also in development.<br />
<br />
I don't know if they have known about this project. And I don't know how much they have developed. I think this is a beautiful coincidence, but sadly one of the two projects failed......<br />
<br />
Anyway, thank you, GINEIPAEDIA!<br />
<br />
:Welcome and thank you <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 00:16, 13 October 2021 (UTC)<br />
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:Welcome. I was aware of seaofstar. It was very nice. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 07:19, 13 October 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:HerbertTalk:Herbert2021-10-11T12:38:10Z<p>Iracundus: /* Rank */</p>
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<div>==Rank==<br />
<br />
What is the source for Herbert's military rank? The one depiction we have of him does not show the epaulettes of an Imperial Fleet Admiral, and instead suggests his rank was High Admiral. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:19, 9 July 2020 (UTC)<br />
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:Heinesse, can you please respond to the above? Based on the picture, Herbert seems to have had the rank of High Admiral as we do not see him with shoulder epaulettes. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:45, 30 October 2020 (UTC)<br />
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::The source is the encyclopedia that provides the details of the battle of Dagon. The OVA does indeed show him as a High Admiral, but it's entirely possible that picture was taken before Herbert became a Fleet Admiral. [[User:Heinesse|Heinesse]]<br />
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:::Not sure if using rank information from licensed sources in infoboxes fits with the canon policy. As documented, those sources can't be used at all except under ''Appendices'', let alone when they conflict with information in the primary sources. But a lot of new stuff has appeared since that policy was written/discussed, so maybe it's worth revisiting. Either way, article talk pages aren't the ideal place for citations; something under ''Licensed sources'' would be helpful if you can find the exact reference (i'd look myself, but my copy of the book is packed away right now) <span style="color: #bbb">&nbsp;♥</span>&nbsp;[[User:kine|<span style="color: #359fef !important;">kine</span>]] @ 22:48, 4 October 2021 (UTC)<br />
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:::Could I get an exact citation of source with page number so I can check? Thank you [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:38, 11 October 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Reinhard_von_LohengrammReinhard von Lohengramm2021-09-21T09:58:37Z<p>Iracundus: /* Personal life */</p>
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<div>{{infobox/character<br />
| image-top = Reinhard_8.jpg<br />
| caption-top = Kaiser '''Reinhard''' ({{d|801|uc}})<br />
| gender = Male<br />
| affiliation = [[Galactic Empire]]<br />
| rank = [[Military ranks of the Galactic Empire#Fleet_admiral|Supreme Fleet Admiral]]<br />
| flagship = ''[[Brünhild]]''<br />''[[Tannhäuser]]'' (former)<br />
| occupation = Kaiser of the Galactic Empire<br />
| status = Deceased (natural causes)<br />
| born = {{d|776|uc}}<br />
| died = {{d|801|uc}}<br />
| actor = [[Horikawa Ryō]] <small>([[My Conquest Is the Sea of Stars (film)|MCISS]], [[Legend of Galactic Heroes (OVA)|OVA]], [[Overture to a New War (film)|ONW]])</small><br />[[Narahashi Miki]] <small>([[Legend of Galactic Heroes (OVA)|OVA]], childhood)</small><br />[[Midorikawa Hikaru]] <small>([[Golden Wings (film)|GW]])</small><br />
}}<br />
'''Reinhard von Lohengramm''' (Japanese: '''ラインハルト・フォン・ローエングラム'''), born '''Reinhard von Müsel''', was an [[Galactic Empire|Imperial]] military and political leader who rose to prominence during the [[Alliance–Imperial War]], overthrowing the ruling [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]] and establishing himself as [[emperor]] of a [[New Galactic Empire]], establishing the [[Goldenlöwe Dynasty]]. A genius in war and politics, he rose to the highest ranks of the [[Imperial Armed Forces|Imperial Fleet]] at a young age and eventually usurped the power of the traditional [[nobility]] during the [[Imperial Civil War]]. Upon becoming the ''de facto'' dictator of the Empire, he instituted numerous political, legal, economic, and social reforms to abolish the old feudalistic system that had existed under the Goldenbaums and created a new empire, which was described by [[Yang Wen-li]] as having been "Not by the people, but for the people." Shortly after his [[Operation Ragnarök|conquest]] of the [[Free Planets Alliance]], he deposed the [[Catherine von Goldenbaum|last Goldenbaum sovereign]], who was essentially powerless, from the throne and proclaimed himself emperor.<br />
<br />
He died on 26 July {{d|801|uc}}, at the age of 25, after having become arguably the most influential leader in human history and having unified humanity under the rule of one government.<br />
<br />
==Early life==<br />
[[File:Reinhardchildhood.PNG|190px|thumb|left|Young Reinhard ({{d|786|uc}})]]<br />
Born on 14 March {{d|776|uc}} to the poor aristocratic von Müsel family, Reinhard spent most of his childhood living with his father, [[Sebastian von Müsel|Sebastian]], and sister, [[Annerose von Grünewald|Annerose]], in a middle-class, suburban neighbourhood. Because Reinhard's mother, [[Caribelle von Müsel|Caribelle]], died in a car accident when he was very young, Reinhard grew very attached to his older sister. The von Müsel family held the noble rank of ''Reichsritter'' (Imperial Knight) therefore barely qualifying as a noble. As a child, Reinhard met the man whom he would later declare another part of himself: [[Siegfried Kircheis]]. The young Reinhard felt the name "Siegfried" was too common, and insisted on calling Siegfried by his surname, Kircheis. He would retain his habit of using Kircheis' surname, despite their close relationship, for the rest of his life. In many ways, Reinhard's life was defined by the strong relationships he formed with his sister and friend in those happy days. ({{logh|004}}, {{gw}})<br />
<br />
Unfortunately, those days were not to last and Reinhard was rudely exposed to the true nature of the [[Galactic Empire]]'s class system in {{d|786|uc}}. One day, a [[Nobility|high nobleman]] happened to see Reinhard's sister Annerose in the street, and took notice of her. Shortly thereafter, rumours of her exceptional beauty reached the Imperial Court. It was then decided that she would be brought to the [[Neue Sanssouci|Imperial Palace]] to serve as an imperial consort to the emperor—Kaiser [[Friedrich IV]]. Reinhard's father accepted a large sum of money as a dowry in exchange for effectively selling his daughter into a life of sexual servitude. He chose to accept the money, because he reasoned that even if he refused the payment Annerose would be taken away regardless. Already weak to alcohol since the death of his wife, Sebastian retreated further into the bottle after Annerose was taken. Reflecting on Sebastian's life after his death, Kircheis thought perhaps he was never able to forgive himself for failing to protect his daughter. ({{dmsn|03}})<br />
<br />
When Reinhard realised what his father had done, he was enraged. He angrily swore to destroy the corrupt, capricious Goldenbaum Dynasty and rescue his sister from the clutches of Kaiser Friedrich IV. Together, he and Kircheis promised to defeat every enemy and win every battle in pursuit of that goal. [[Julian Mintz]] would later note that Annerose served as the catalyst that resulted in the great change of history that Reinhard accomplished. Shortly after his sister was taken, Reinhard joined military school to become an officer, as he considered it the fastest way to advance in their class-based society, getting Kircheis to go along with him. ({{logh|004|110}}, {{swv|01}})<br />
<br />
==Early military career==<br />
===Kapche-Lanka===<br />
[[File:Reinhard_and_tank_fire.jpg|210px|thumb|Reinhard in Kapche-Lanka ({{d|791|uc}})]]<br />
Reinhard graduated from the [[Imperial Officer Academy]] on [[Odin]] at the top of his class, and though he was much resented by his upperclassmen, all of his peers and underclassmen respected and admired him. Immediately after graduating, Reinhard and Kircheis, as young junior officers, were assigned to an Imperial facility on the frozen world of [[Kapche-Lanka]], located within the [[Iserlohn Corridor]] on the front line of the [[Alliance–Imperial War]]. It was a minor world that had some natural resources, but was not of much significance, with combat there going on mainly due to the fact that neither the Empire nor the Alliance wanted the other side to take control of it. Reinhard viewed it as an example of the incompetence of the leadership on both sides. He earned the ire of the commanding officer, {{rank|imperial|Captain}} [[Herder]], after getting into a fight with some lower ranking servicemen that were abusing a civilian woman. However, Reinhard's situation would become more perilous when Marquise [[Sussanna von Beenemünde]], a concubine of Kaiser Friedrich who despised his sister's status at court, secretly hired the captain to assassinate Reinhard. He and Kircheis are thus sent on what is ostensibly a recon mission into the frozen wastes of Kapche-Lanka, but with an ill-equipped [[Panzer IV|tank]]. ({{swv|01|02}})<br />
<br />
They inevitably run low on fuel and decide to attack an [[Free Planets Alliance|Alliance]] tank patrol that they stumble across to obtain more supplies. After successfully ambushing them, the pair gained not only more fuel but information on an upcoming Alliance attack on the Imperial base. Meanwhile, Reinhard correctly assumes that Captain Herder will send a subordinate to check on whether or not they are still alive, and lays a trap for him. When {{rank|imperial|Lieutenant}} [[Fugenberch]] arrives and reveals what is really going on before intending to finish off Reinhard, Kircheis fires from the tank nearby and kills the lieutenant. Following his death, Reinhard and Kircheis returned to the base to find it is under attack by the Alliance already, at which point they use a code they obtained from the enemy tank they captured to shut down the Alliance's attacking tanks, allowing the Empire to counterattack. Subsequently, feigning ignorance of Captain Herder's plot against them, they take part in his assault on the Alliance base, and during that assault Herder attempts to murder Reinhard. However, they prepared for it and stopped him, though in the end Herder committed suicide. ({{swv|03|04}})<br />
<br />
Unfortunately, both conspirators on Kapche-Lanka died, making any possible legal action against Marquise von Beenemünde impossible. Following his victories, Reinhard was promoted to Sub-lieutenant and transferred to the space fleet. ({{swv|04}})<br />
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===''Hameln II''===<br />
[[File:Kircheis Reinhard Bertram.jpg|thumb|210px|left|Reinhard and Kircheis confronting Bertram ({{d|791|uc}})]]<br />
Following the events on Kapche-Lanka, in August of {{d|791|uc}}, Reinhard was assigned as Chief Navigator aboard the destroyer ''[[Hameln II]]''. Although the ship's captain is impressed with Reinhard's service record, the rest of the crew is less enthusiastic and sees him as a spoiled aristocratic brat who got promoted because of his sister's status with the Kaiser. However, while going outside the vessel on a space walk, an enlisted rating ended up getting disconnected from the ship and flying out into space, before Reinhard rescued him. This earned the young officer respect from the enlisted crew of the ''Hameln II''. Later during a routine patrol outside of Iserlohn, their squadron is attacked and Reinhard temporarily takes command of the vessel when the captain is severely injured and the first officer, Lieutenant [[Hartmann Bertram]], happens to not be on the bridge. Reinhard led the destroyer away from the rest of their squadron, which fled from the Alliance vessels that were waiting to ambush them in a nearby asteroid field. Instead he flew into the asteroid field, predicting the Alliance ships wouldn't follow them and instead hunt for the fleeing squadron. Bertram returned and later demanded he pass command authority back to him and return to the normal course, but Reinhard's prediction is confirmed when the rest of their squadron is destroyed. ({{mut|01|02}})<br />
<br />
Bertram orders the detainment of Reinhard on the grounds of mutiny, which Kircheis (the Security Officer) carries out. As they hide in the asteroid field from the patrolling Alliance ships, Bertram decided to self-destruct the ship as he believed there is not way of escape. He ignored fellow crewman [[Schmidt]]'s proposal to use the energy dispensed by a solar eruption from a nearby star to propel their ship away from the Alliance squadron in the area. Kircheis became aware of both the proposal and Bertram's plan to self-destruct, and decided to free Reinhard with the help of some enlisted men. Together they took control of the bridge but were confronted by Bertram, who shot an enlisted crewman defending Reinhard. The situation would have escalated if not for the arrival of {{rank|imperial|lieutenant commander}} [[Adenauer]], their captain, who repeats his order giving Reinhard command authority. They proceeded with the plan to get away using the eruption from the nearby star, and despite some minor problems that resulted in Bertram's death after volunteering for a dangerous mission to atone for having shot a crewman, they are able to escape. ({{mut|03|04}})<br />
<br />
After their return to Iserlohn, Reinhard was recommended by Adenauer for promotion to lieutenant. Given the choice between continuing on as the new executive officer and an assignment elsewhere, Reinhard opted for assignment elsewhere to broaden his experience. ({{Mut|04}})<br />
<br />
===Military administration===<br />
[[File:Reinhard and opponent.jpg|thumb|210px|Reinhard during his duel on behalf of Viscountess Schaffhausen ({{d|792|uc}})]]<br />
While working a desk job at the investigative department of the [[Ministry of War|Ministry of Military Affairs]] on Odin, Reinhard discovered several instances of corruption among base commanders on the front line. The amounts of supplies ordered and those received by the front line units do not correlate, and Reinhard deduces that certain officers were siphoning off military supplies to sell on the black market. He and Kircheis gathered evidence and reported to their superiors, but were told that nothing could be done: a certain amount of corruption was accepted as a "necessary evil" and they were essentially ordered to drop the matter. This further solidified Reinhard's opinion that the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]] was too corrupt to be allowed to continue. ({{duel|01}})<br />
<br />
However, the posting at the [[Imperial Capital]] meant that he was able to meet with his sister Annerose. During one such occasion, he found out about the dispute between one of her sister's few allies at the Imperial court, Viscountess [[Dorothea von Schaffhausen]], and Count [[Herxheimer]], relative of one of the most influential high nobles of the Empire: Marquis [[Wilhelm von Littenheim]], over territorial mining rights. Herxheimer knew he had no chance of winning the case against her in a court of law and challenged her to a duel, using his reputation to ensure that no professional duelist would work for the Schaffhausen family. When Reinhard heard of this, he offered to take the place of her duelist, despite having no experience in that arena. News of the "blond brat" choosing to participate in this high-level duel spread quickly throughout the upper echelons of Imperial society and soon the event became a spectacle. Reinhard learned to use the antique flintlock pistols traditionally wielded by duelists, initially struggling before happening to run into a young lieutenant commander, [[Cornelius Lutz]], who trained him in its use. Unbeknownst to Reinhard, Marquise von Beenemüde (having failed to get Reinhard killed on Kapche-Lanka) hired an assassin to take the place of Count Herxheimer's [[Goldschmidt|duelist]], in order to kill Reinhard during the duel. ({{duel|01|02}})<br />
<br />
The duel was held on a property owned by Marquis Littenheim, who supported the Count, and was viewed by a large audience of nobles. Both the assassin and Reinhard missed each other in the first round because the latter duelist chose to leap to the side. In the second round, both of them wounded each other, in the assassin's right shoulder and Reinhard's left arm. The third round was a sword match, at the request of the assassin, who quickly proves himself to be the superior swordsman despite his injury, but before Reinhard could be defeated a group of [[Imperial Guard]]smen arrived at the arena on horseback, telling them that Kaiser Friedrich IV had ordered the duel to be suspended and had settled the dispute personally, splitting the proceeds of the mines equally between the two feuding families. The outcome pleased the Schaffhausen family while Herxheimer reluctantly accepted the Emperor's settlement. The assassin challenged Reinhard to another duel privately, and Reinhard, with assistance from Kircheis, is able to defeat him the second time, once again foiling Beenemüde's attempt to kill him. ({{duel|03|04}})<br />
<br />
===''Hässliche Entlein''===<br />
[[File:Commander Reinhard.png|210px|thumb|left|Commander Reinhard at Iserlohn ({{d|792|uc}})]]<br />
Later in {{d|792|uc}}, Reinhard was transferred to [[Iserlohn Fortress]] on the front line, being given command of the [[Imperial destroyer (788 UC era)|destroyer]] ''[[Ermland II]]''. He spent part of his time there under investigation by a lieutenant commander named [[Gregor von Krumbach]], who was sent to Iserlohn to investigate the death of Captain Herder back on Kapche-Lanka. Secretly, however, he was sent there with the goal of killing Reinhard, one behalf of Marquise von Beenemüde. Krumbach was unable to find an opportunity to do so when an Alliance expeditionary fleet [[Fifth Battle of Iserlohn|attacked]] the fortress, at which point he joined Reinhard and Kircheis aboard the ''Ermland II''. During the battle ''Ermland II'' destroyed an [[Alliance cruiser (788 UC era)|Alliance cruiser]], and for that he was later promoted to {{rank|imperial|commander|lc}}. After the battle Reinhard and Kircheis confronted Krumbach, killing him. ({{gw}})<br />
<br />
In December of the same year, Commander von Müsel took command of the [[Imperial cruiser (788 UC era)|Imperial cruiser]] ''[[Hässliche Entlein]]'' ("Ugly Duckling"). It was here that he encountered [[August Samuel Wahlen]] who was his executive officer. As the captain of a cruiser, Reinhard drilled his crew frequently while they were not in battle, keeping the ship at combat readiness and the highest levels of efficiency. Around that time, he was chosen, along with the crew of his ship, for a special mission behind enemy lines by Imperial military intelligence. It was to intercept Count Herxheimer and prevent him from defecting to the Free Planets Alliance with the stolen directional [[Seffle particle|Seffle particles]] prototype. Due to the secrecy of the mission, they could expect no support from other Imperial units and to be operating in enemy territory. Reinhard accepted the operation, being joined by a representative of intelligence, Lieutenant Commander [[Bendling]]. ({{ret|01}})<br />
<br />
[[File:Hassliche entlein bow.png|thumb|210px|Reinhard's second command, ''Hässliche Entlein'' ({{d|792|uc}})]]<br />
After organizing a skirmish between Imperial and Alliance border patrol ships in the Iserlohn Corridor to distract them, ''Hässliche Entlein'' was able to pass into the Alliance side of the Corridor undetected. The cruiser then skirted the edge of Alliance space in an uneventful southward journey to [[Fezzan Corridor]], where it caught Count Herxheimer's vessel and boarded it. In the process, they received valuable intelligence from {{rank|imperial|sub-lieutenant}} [[Neidhart Müller]], then the military attaché at the [[Galactic Empire High Commissioner's office|Imperial diplomatic mission]] on [[Fezzan]]. He and most of his family were killed in a decompression accident aboard the ship, except for [[Margareta von Herxheimer|his daughter]], who was taken aboard ''Hässliche Entlein''. Along with the Count's ship and the prototype generator aboard it—which they could not bring onto their own vessel as it was digitally locked onto his ship—the cruiser then evaded an Alliance patrol squadron while en route back to the Empire. They were able to use the generator to a limited extent, and even in that state it was enough to destroy the pursuing Alliance squadron. After that, Kircheis proposed that they make a deal to get the unlock code to the generator from the Count's daughter in exchange for her being able to defect to the Free Planets Alliance, to which she agreed. ({{ret|02|03}})<br />
<br />
However, not only did the unlock code give access to the Seffle particle generator, but to secret information surrounding Count Herxheimer's attempted defection. The Count had learned that Duke [[Otto von Braunschweig]]'s daughter had inherited a genetic disease from her mother, meaning that Marquis Littenheim's daughter did as well, considering that their wives were sisters. That made them both ineligible claimants for the Imperial throne by the [[Inferior Genes Exclusion Act]]. Thus Littenheim tried to have him killed to suppress knowledge of that fact, prompting his defection. Reinhard and Kircheis were the only others, besides intelligence officer Bendling (who chose to defect to the Alliance with the Count's daughter), who were aware of the information. A short while later, ''Hässliche Entlein'' was able to return to Iserlohn Fortress after using the Seffle particle generator to break through an Alliance blockade and receiving supplies from supply ships led by [[Ernst von Eisenach]]. ({{ret|04}})<br />
<br />
===Imperial Military Police===<br />
[[File:Steger denouncing.jpg|thumb|210px|left|Reinhard confronting the military school principal ({{d|793|uc}})]]<br />
Following the success of their operation, Reinhard received a promotion and transfer from the ''Hässliche Entlein'' back to Odin, where he visited his alma mater, the War Academy. As a seventeen-year old {{rank|imperial|captain|lc}}, he naturally was respected and admired by most of the cadets. After observing the school for a day Reinhard and Kircheis received their new assignment in the [[Imperial Military Police]]. Reinhard was annoyed by this as it would not give him the opportunity to distinguish himself and get a promotion, to which Kircheis reminded him it would be valuable to know how the MPs worked and that out of the Goldenbaum Dynasty's institutions, the Military Police was one that needed reform the most. It was during this time that Reinhard first learned of [[Ulrich Kesler]], a Fleet officer who transferred to the Military Police as an observer, and his efforts to try to keep the MPs from severely punishing a woman for ''lèse-majesté'', only for all of his work to have ultimately been in vain. It again incited Reinhard to go on a rant about the degenerate state of the Empire before he was interrupted by a call from the chief of police to receive his new orders: go back to the school to investigate a murder that took place the night before. ({{dmsn|01}})<br />
<br />
A cadet named [[Karl von Reifeisen]] had been found murdered. Reinhard and Kircheis then investigated the matter, briefly interrupted by the death of his father Sebastian von Müsel. A second murder was later committed, of cadet [[Johann Gottholp von Bertz]]. Although Kircheis noted that Reinhard did not have to become an expert in everything, the two were able to solve the case, despite Reinhard's initial lack of interest in the assignment. In the process of the investigation they discovered that Reifeisen's death was an accident, but the school principal [[Gerhard von Steger]], the first to find his body, attempted to make it look like a murder both to prevent any accusations of negligence on his part, and to assist his grandson, who was third in the class. Bertz was the second in their class, and Steger killed him to remove an obstacle and to implicate [[Moritz von Haase]], at the top of the class, as the killer. Reinhard and Kircheis confronted Steger and explained the results of their investigation to him, taking him into custody shortly afterwards. Haase, who they discovered was color-blind and lied about this defect to get into military school, was also taken away, against Reinhard's wishes, who again saw it as an example of the folly of Kaiser [[Rudolf von Goldenbaum|Rudolf the Great]]'s policies; since this cadet with a genetic problem had been at the top of his class in military school. ({{dmsn|02|03|04}})<br />
<br />
===Fleet command===<br />
[[File:Tannhaeuser in Van-Fleet.jpg|thumb|210px|Reinhard aboard the bridge of ''[[Tannhäuser]]'' near Van-Fleet ({{d|794|uc}})]]<br />
Having been promoted to {{rank|imperial|commodore|lc}}, the eighteen-year old Reinhard commanded a small squadron of the elderly {{rank|imperial|Vice Admiral}} [[Richard von Grimmelshausen]]'s [[Grimmelshausen Fleet|fleet]] at the [[Battle of Van-Fleet]] in March {{d|794|uc}}. The battle was viewed by Reinhard as completely useless and strategically insignificant, and initially Reinhard's squadron was placed in reserve along with the rest of the Grimmelshausen Fleet, much to the young commodore's frustration. The Imperial commander-in-chief, [[Gregor von Mückenberger]], saw the old admiral as a liability and sent his force to the fourth planet orbiting [[Van-Fleet (star)|Van-Fleet]], Van Fleet 4-2. Unbeknownst to the Imperials, an Alliance rear support supply base had been constructed on the planet. Reinhard voiced this possibility to Grimmelshausen and offered to lead the recon team on the ground, but Commodore [[Hermann von Lüneburg]]—an officer who specialized in ground warfare—asked to take command. The entire fleet proceeds to land on the surface, with Reinhard remaining aboard his flagship initially before taking part in an assault on the Alliance facility as the vice commander, below Lüneburg. This frustrates him as well, both because they are the same rank and the man's condescending attitude. It was the beginning of the rivalry between the two. ({{hbshbl|01|02|04}})<br />
<br />
Over the course of the battle, Reinhard and Kircheis entered the Alliance base with Imperial forces and personally captured the base commander, {{rank|fpa|Vice Admiral}} [[Sinclair Cerebrese]]. As a result, Reinhard and Lüneburg were both promoted to {{rank|imperial|rear admiral|lc}} while Grimmelshausen was made a full {{rank|imperial|admiral|lc}}. Back on Odin after the engagement, the young flag officer had Kircheis check Lüneburg's background, and also visited Annerose once again, where he complained about Kircheis being refused a promotion. This changed soon after when Admiral Grimmelshausen recommended Reinhard's redheaded friend for a promotion. Not long after that Reinhard and Kircheis heard about a rumor spreading through the Imperial court which stated that Kaiser Friedrich IV planned to bestow upon Reinhard a new title, the Countship of Lohengramm, on his twentieth birthday. Reinhard uncharacteristically reacted positively to the suggestion. Reinhard later visited a party hosted by Grimmelshausen that celebrated his promotion to admiral, which included among its guest list, Lüneburg, with whom he nearly got into a fistfight with after Luneburg accused Reinhard of impropriety with his wife. ({{hbshbl|06|07|08}})<br />
<br />
[[File:Friedrich IV and Grimmelshausen.jpg|thumb|210px|left|Kaiser Friedrich and Grimmelshausen discuss awarding Reinhard a countship ({{d|794|uc}})]]<br />
Later in the year both officers returned to the front lines for the [[Sixth Battle of Iserlohn]]. In the early part of the campaign Reinhard amassed several victories during the initial skirmishes ahead of the Alliance main fleet's arrival for the assault on Iserlohn, but received little attention from his superiors. The [[Free Planets Star Fleet]], however, became aware that there was a capable Imperial fleet commander at work who had handed them several stinging defeats and made attempts to entrap him using a plan developed by Yang. Outnumbered ten to one, Reinhard lost a third of his fleet breaking out of the trap. Later the Alliance completed its full deployment and began the Sixth Battle of Iserlohn proper. During the main engagement Reinhard's fleet was held in reserve. When [[Iserlohn Fortress]] was under dangerous bombardment by Alliance missile ships he launched an attack without orders, driving them away. He then seized the initiative and struck the Alliance flank, forcing them to counterattack on a narrow front where their numbers could not overwhelm his much smaller force. Rushing to join the battle, other Imperial fleets blocked the fire of Thor's Hammer and the battle became a melee (as Reinhard had predicted). ({{hbshbl|10|11}})<br />
<br />
Reinhard's rival Lüneburg was killed leading a boarding action during this phase of the fighting. Meanwhile, while his squadron was being resupplied in Iserlohn Fortress, Reinhard met with Ulrich Kesler, who explained that Grimmelshausen sent him his memoirs which included information he had learned from various [[Nobility|high nobles]] over the years, including incriminating, secretive information. However, Reinhard declined and asked Kesler to keep the Grimmelshausen's book with the information, to be made public when the nobility of the Empire "are no longer in power." The blond rear admiral did not want to resort to blackmail to further his career. Meanwhile, back on the battlefield, Reinhard proposed to Mückenberger a plan to end the stalemate: to block the other end of the Iserlohn Corridor, which would make them break off the attack or be trapped and destroyed. Reinhard was appointed to command this force and the Alliance Star Fleet took the bait, following him and trying to withdraw from Iserlohn. The disengage Imperial Fleet then retreated as well, allowing the [[Thor Hammer]] superlaser to be used against the retreating Alliance ships to a decisive effect. ({{hbshbl|11|12}})<br />
<br />
===The Third Battle of Tiamat===<br />
[[File:Reinhard pinpoint attack in Tiamat.jpg|thumb|210px|Reinhard's concentrated fire that won at Tiamat ({{d|795|uc}})]]<br />
To commemorate the thirtieth anniversary of Kaiser Friedrich's ascension to the throne (a rare feat in the Goldenbaum Dynasty) in December {{d|794|uc}}, the Galactic Empire announces a large new offensive against the Alliance, partly to distract the Imperial people from his lack of domestic accomplishments. This information is reported to the Alliance government via [[Dominion of Fezzan|Fezzan]] and soon several fleets are deployed to meet this threat. The two sides engaged each other in the historically known [[Tiamat Starzone]] in February {{d|795|uc}}. Reinhard's formation was initially kept in reserve as the battle began, by order of [[Gregor von Mückenberger]]. However, the young vice admiral had the opportunity to play a key role when [[Willem Holland]]'s [[11th Fleet]] charged directly into the Imperial formation, ahead of the other Alliance fleets. Chaos ensued, and Reinhard moved his fleet back, which encouraged Holland to think that the Imperial line was breaking. Orders from Vice Admiral [[Alexander Bucock]] of the [[5th Fleet]] to withdraw were ignored by Holland, who pressed the attack. However, the main Imperial body under Mückenberger's command eventually was able to disentangle itself from Holland's 11th Fleet, who by then had megalomaniac visions of invading the Empire himself from there. That gave Reinhard the opportunity to have his fleet launch a concentrated artillery attack at one point in the enemy formation, the center. The 11th Fleet flagship ''[[Epimetheus]]'' was instantly destroyed, Holland being killed instantly. Another barrage three minutes later broke the remaining 11th Fleet ships into a full retreat. ({{tbt|01}})<br />
<br />
The retreat of the 11th Fleet was covered by their comrades in the 5th and [[10th Fleet]]s, however, preventing an effective Imperial pursuit and prompting Reinhard to admire the abilities of the 5th and 10th Fleet commanders. The Empire then withdrew, having achieved a propaganda victory by practically annihilating the Alliance's 11th Fleet. Some dismissed his artillery attack that decided the battle as just luck, but the fact remained that Reinhard's action was decisive in the victory. Thus his promotion to admiral was assured. ({{tbt|02}})<br />
<br />
==Later military career==<br />
===The Battle of Legnica===<br />
[[File:Brunhild crest ONW (BD).jpg|thumb|210px|left|Future Imperial Supreme Flagship ''Brünhild'' ({{d|795|uc}})]]<br />
With the victory at the Third Battle of Tiamat, Reinhard was promoted to the Admiralty—becoming the youngest full admiral in the Galactic Empire. As an admiral, Reinhard was given command of a [[Lohengramm Fleet|fleet]] and his own, a one-of-a-kind warship, the ''[[Brünhild]]''—the bloodthirsty maiden. It was an experimental battleship, the only one of its class, constructed with advanced technologies that ignored to mass production costs. Among its various upgrades was advanced command and control equipment that allowed Reinhard to direct massive fleets of warships. The vessel did not have to wait long to see its first action, as Imperial Admiral Reinhard von Müsel was ordered to command his expeditionary fleet to Iserlohn. ({{tbt|2}}; {{ffc|1r|full}})<br />
<br />
Upon arrival to the fortress, Reinhard von Müsel's expeditionary fleet was ordered to intercept an Alliance fleet that had approached the area in further in the Corridor by the commander-in-chief, Fleet Admiral Mückenberger. The recently arrived Imperial reinforcements were exhausted from the long journey to Iserlohn: the order to attack was a transparent attempt to get Reinhard killed: many of the nobility were jealous of Reinhard's favour with the Kaiser, believing he had been granted a command at such a young age solely because of his sister's influence. Reinhard encountered the Alliance fleet into the atmosphere of the planet [[Legnica]], a gas giant in the Tiamat Starzone. In the upper layers of the atmosphere, the ships of both fleets were forced to fight at extremely close-ranges, as sensors and communications were virtually non-functional. Reinhard ordered his fleet to engage the enemy in close combat for several minutes, having each ship fire all of its cannons as frequently as possible. This rapidly energized the upper layer of Legnica's atmosphere, creating a massive wind storm that propelled a great deal of the hydrogen and helium in the atmosphere upward. Reinhard then had his fleet rise up out of the atmosphere, where he then fired a single nuclear missile from the ''Brünhild'' to Legnica's core. When the nuclear warhead detonated, it ignited the atmosphere: the Alliance fleet took heavy damage in the ensuing firestorm. ({{mciss}})<br />
<br />
Though Reinhard von Müsel had managed to inflict heavy losses on the Alliance fleet with only token losses to his own forces, he was not given proper credit for his victory, as the weather conditions were assumed by his superiors to have been a natural phenomenon and his victory attributed to luck. This further strengthened the perception that Reinhard was an incompetent commander who had only achieved his rank by "hiding under his sister's skirts", further encouraging contempt for him on behalf of the high nobles. ({{mciss}})<br />
<br />
===The Fourth Battle of Tiamat===<br />
[[File:Kircheis Reinhard Mecklinger.jpg|thumb|210px|Reinhard, Kircheis, and chief of staff [[Ernest Mecklinger]] ({{d|795|uc}})]]<br />
The Free Planets Alliance chose to continue with their plans to assault Iserlohn Fortress despite their defeat at Legnica. The Imperial fleets stationed at Iserlohn, under the command of Gregor von Mückenberger, sailed forth to meet the Alliance fleet head on: Reinhard von Müsel's fleet was positioned at the left wing of the formation. Determined to be rid of the "Admiral of the Skirts" once and for all, Mückenberger ordered Reinhard's formation to advance on the Alliance fleets alone as a diversionary measure: the rest of the Imperial Fleet would maintain is position, meaning Reinhard's smaller force would be annihilated by the vastly more numerous Alliance ships. Reinhard complied with the order but staked his survival on a complete gamble. He advanced his fleet toward the enemy formation alone, but rather than open fire on them once he was in range, however, Reinhard had his entire fleet turn ninety degrees to the right. The blond admiral's fleet then slowly moved in front of the Alliance fleet, utterly exposed. Unable to comprehend why an enemy intentionally made itself so vulnerable, the Alliance fleet commanders refused to attack Reinhard's forces, believing his maneuver to be some sort of elaborate trick. Their inaction allowed Reinhard to position his forces along the left flank of the Alliance formation. ({{mciss}})<br />
<br />
By the time they realized their error, the main Imperial Fleet had entered combat range, forcing the Alliance invasion force to deal with the main Imperial force, ignoring Reinhard's detachment. The Imperial fleet was roughly equal in size to the Alliance fleet, turning the battle into a violent brawl. Understanding he had been outsmarted by the young admiral, Mückenberger refused to ask Reinhard's fleet to attack: Mückenberger believed that he was similarly petty, and would not move to aid the besieged Imperial forces unless ordered to do so. Reinhard, however, realized that the gratitude of the thousands of soldiers whose lives he could save by attacking the Alliance flank far outweighed the ire he would earn from embarrassing Mückenberger. He ordered his fleet to attack, and in moments the Alliance forces were facing a rout. ({{mciss}})<br />
[[File:Yang under Brunhild 2.jpg|''Ulysses'' takes ''Brünhild'' hostage ({{d|795|uc}})|thumb|left|210px]]<br />
<br />
At this point, the Alliance forces decided they had no choice but to retreat. They were determined to launch a diversionary attack directly against Iserlohn Fortress, to draw off the bulk of the Imperial fleet and buy enough time for them to escape. {{rank|fpa|Commodore}} [[Yang Wen-li]] volunteered to lead the diversionary attack: he took a single battleship, the ''[[Ulysses]]'', with a skeleton crew along with 4 unmanned cruisers straight for Iserlohn. Using sensor decoys, Yang Wen-li was able to fool the Imperial Fleet into thinking he was leading a fleet of several thousand warships toward the undefended fortress. Mückenberger immediately ordered the fleet to go back to Iserlohn, and taking advantage of this opportunity, the Alliance began to retreat while inflicting additional losses upon the Imperial commander's main force. Fortunately, Reinhard immediately realized the Alliance fleet was a decoy operation, and managed to reveal this fact to Mückenberger. This prompted the Fleet Admiral to resume the attack on the Alliance forces, preventing them from retreating. Determined to save the lives of his fellow soldiers, Yang Wen-li then flew his battleship straight into the heart of the Imperial Fleet. There, he assumed a position immediately beneath the ''Brünhild'', effectively taking Reinhard von Müsel hostage. Reinhard ordered his forces to disregard his own safety and open fire on Yang Wen-li's ship, but they refused, with Captain [[Karl Robert Steinmetz]] saying that as the captain of the flagship he would not put it into unnecessary danger, a statement that Reinhard accepted. Mückenberger also did not fire, unwilling to risk the political damage of directly killing the brother of Kaiser Friedrich's favored concubine. Both the Imperial and Alliance fleets held fire on each other until they had passed, at which point Yang left the battlefield, monitored by Reinhard. ({{mciss}})<br />
<br />
After the Fourth Battle of Tiamat, Reinhard was promoted to High Admiral, and firmly established a reputation for himself as a brilliant tactician because of his actions during the engagement. Furthermore, Reinhard went to lengths to learn the name of the Alliance officer who had managed to open up a path to safety for the retreating Alliance forces, while at the same time Yang Wen-li had sought out the name of the commander of the white ship. From this point on, the rivalry with Yang Wen-li would help to define Reinhard's life. ({{mciss}})<br />
<br />
===Astarte and other developments===<br />
[[File:Conspiring.jpg|thumb|210px|The three military chiefs deciding on Reinhard's deployment ({{d|796|uc}})]]<br />
Having secured a reputation as a skilled military officer at Tiamat, Reinhard received a hero's welcome at the Imperial City on Odin, where he was promoted to {{rank|imperial|high admiral|lc}} and is formally granted the title of Count von Lohengramm by His Majesty the Kaiser. Although he did not expect to be deployed any time soon, the scheming of Duke Otto von Braunschweig, the most powerful aristocrat in the Empire, and other high nobles—who by that point had no choice but to acknowledge the young high admiral and despised him—resulted in the High Command Office deciding to send him back to the front. Not only that, but as he found out, most of his top officers in the [[Lohengramm Fleet]] (including chief of staff [[Ernest Mecklinger]], fleet commanders [[Oskar von Reuenthal]] and [[Wolfgang Mittermeyer]], and even the ''Brünhild'''s captain Steinmetz) were to be temporarily replaced by other commanders that he had not worked with for this operation. Although Kircheis was unenthusiastic, Reinhard was glad and saw it as an opportunity to gain even more accolades for advancement. He was ordered to lead a fleet of 20,000 vessels to invade Alliance space. However, the details were leaked by Duke von Braunschweig via [[Dominion of Fezzan|Fezzani]] leader [[Adrian Rubinsky]] to the Alliance government, and they dispatched the [[2nd Fleet]], [[4th Fleet]], and [[6th Fleet]] to counter him. ({{onw}})<br />
<br />
The fleet under Reinhard advanced towards the [[Astarte Starzone]]. The three Alliance fleets were divided and intended to attack the Imperial force from three sides, encircling the enemy formation in a repeat of the historical [[Battle of Dagon]], around 156 years earlier. Since the three different fleets, while greater in total number, were weaker than Reinhard's force on an individual level, he decided to speed up and annihilate each one of them individually before they could meet up. This resulted in the near-total destruction of the 4th and 6th Fleets before he attacked the 2nd Fleet, where the actions of Yang Wen-li, who took command upon Vice Admiral [[Paetta]] becoming injured, prevented it from suffering the same fate as its comrades. Nonetheless, the [[Battle of Astarte]] ended as an overwhelming Imperial victory despite the overall numerical inferiority of Reinhard's forces. Shortly after this victory he was promoted to rank of Fleet Admiral, an unprecedented achievement for someone of his age, and was made Vice Commander of the Imperial Space Fleet. In this position he commanded around a third of the fleets in the Empire, and after the fall of Iserlohn Fortress, he was put in charge of the war front on the Imperial side of the Iserlohn Corridor. Reinhard was also granted his own admiralty, and selected talented individuals he had encountered over his previous military service to staff his new command. These young commanders—commoners and lesser nobility—had previously been in low ranking positions, with their talents and initiative unrecognized and unappreciated by hierarchical and largely highborn senior officers. ({{logh|001|002|004|005|011}}, {{onw}})<br />
<br />
Among his admiralty were most notably Wolfgang Mittermeyer and Oskar von Reuenthal, who were known to be particularly talented fleet commanders. Their history with Reinhard went back further than that, however. On 2 May {{d|795|uc}}, Reuenthal visited Reinhard and Kircheis, asking them for assistance to free his best friend Mittermeyer. He had executed a noble-born subordinate for a crime against a civilian, following martial law, but since Mittermeyer was a commoner he was then illegally detained by some high nobles and kept in prison. Reuenthal confirmed his views on the state of the Goldenbaum Dynasty and subsequently pledged fealty to Reinhard in exchange for helping free Mittermeyer from the high nobles, which they did. Afterwards both of the young commanders became loyal followers of Reinhard, at least initially. ({{logh|075}})<br />
<br />
[[File:Reinhard 3.jpg|thumb|left|210px|Reinhard at Astarte ({{d|796|uc}})]]<br />
Shortly afterwards, Reinhard assigned his friend Kircheis (who was a rear admiral at the time) to lead the effort in suppressing the [[Castrop Rebellion]]. The Emperor had ordered the blond admiral to requisition [[Maximilian von Castrop]]'s wealth, stolen from the Imperial state, and to quell the noble's revolt. Reinhard made the decision to send Kircheis in his place so that he could gain his own accolades, to establish a reputation as a skilled tactician in his own right. The two developed a strategy to destroy Castrop's main defensive weapon, the [[Artemis Necklace]] (thought to be impregnable), which was to utilize a directional [[Seffle particle]] generator. The ploy worked, and upon the loss of the Necklace, Castrop's subordinates murdered him out of fear of Imperial reprisal. That way the "impregnable" planet was freed by Kircheis' work without the loss of a single life besides Castrop's, increasing his reputation as more than just Reinhard's shadow and joining the ranks of the vice admirals of the Lohengramm admiralty. Kircheis expressed disappointment to Reinhard at the death of the noble, to which Reinhard replied that he considered Kircheis to be a "good man." ({{logh|005}})<br />
<br />
After the [[Seventh Battle of Iserlohn]] (which occurred about five months after the victory at Astarte) and the loss of Iserlohn Fortress to the Alliance, the three Imperial Chiefs of Staff sought to resign from their positions: it was obvious that one of the vacancies would be given to Reinhard. Instead, when Kaiser Friedrich IV gave Reinhard the choice of any of the three vacant seats, Reinhard begged the Kaiser not to dismiss any of the Chiefs of Staff, urging him to be lenient: those responsible for the defeat had already been punished by their own actions. The minister of state and acting Imperial premier, [[Klaus von Lichtenlade]], agreed with Reinhard (taken aback by the young admiral's decision), and Friedrich IV determined not to punish anyone for the loss of the fortress. In return for Reinhard's unexpected intercession on their behalf the three Imperial Chiefs of Staff dropped any attempts to punish [[Paul von Oberstein]], a staff officer of the Iserlohn Stationed Fleet who had escaped the fall of the fortress, and whom Reinhard then took on as an advisor. Oberstein had proven himself to be capable in politics in a way that Reinhard and Kircheis were not, and was an ardent opponent of the Goldenbaum Dynasty. He, like Reuenthal and Mittermeyer, would prove to be an important player in the Lohengramm camp in the years to come. ({{logh|008}})<br />
<br />
===Alliance invasion of the Empire===<br />
[[File:Konigs sun.jpg|210px|thumb|Ships of the Imperial [[Black Lancers]] at Amritsar ({{d|796|uc}})]]<br />
When Yang Wen-li captured Iserlohn Fortress, he hoped that the Free Planets Alliance, whose economy was in shambles after more than a century of continual warfare, would seek an equitable peace treaty. Instead, the ruling [[High Council]] of the Alliance, motivated by political gain, and some overly ambitious junior officers under [[Andrew Falk]] who sought personal advancement, saw an opportunity to strike into the heart of the Empire and to 'liberate' the people of the Galactic Empire from their oppressors. As Vice Commander of the Imperial Fleet, Fleet Admiral Reinhard von Lohengramm was tasked with the [[Invasion of the Imperial Territory|defense of the Empire]] by Emperor Friedrich. At the counsel of his advisor, Paul von Oberstein, Reinhard pursued a "scorched earth" strategy. Rather than engage the invading Alliance fleets directly, he had Imperial warships remove all supplies from every world in the immediate path of the Alliance force, leaving the people to rely on the Alliance "liberators" to feed them. Because he knew the Alliance invasion hinged upon the idea of liberating the peasants from the Kaiser's rule, Reinhard correctly calculated that the Alliance occupation forces would need to feed the civilians—thus creating a strained and long line of supply from Iserlohn. Once this supply line was attacked and severed by Vice Admiral Siegfried Kircheis, the invading Alliance troops soon found themselves to be under-supplied and starving along with the Imperial civilians. The people of the occupied planets, though initially thankful for the liberation, soon turned on the occupying Alliance forces who had resorted to confiscating food from the civilians. ({{logh|012|013|014|015}})<br />
<br />
As the scattered Alliance fleets, suffering from the lack of supplies and a drop in morale, reached the height of their fatigue, the Imperial Fleet launched its counteroffensive. Although many of their commanders realized there was no chance of winning, they attempted to make a stand, but ultimately suffered heavy losses before succumbing to Reinhard's stratagem. However, due to the speed and swiftness of these attacks, only three of the Alliance fleets were able to maintain combat capability (Yang's [[13th Fleet|13th]], Bucock's 5th, and [[Appleton]]'s [[8th Fleet|8th]]), the others all being destroyed, severely diminished, or having surrendered. Meanwhile, the commander-in-chief of the Alliance expeditionary force, Fleet Admiral [[Lassalle Lobos]], unwilling to relinquish his gains or admit defeat in the invasion, ordered all remaining forces to gather at the [[Amritsar Starzone]] in an attempt battle the combined Imperial Fleet directly ''en masse''. Reinhard was more than willing to oblige. At the [[Battle of Amritsar]], Reinhard personally led the obliteration of the Free Planets Alliance invasion force. After the loss of much of the 8th and 5th Fleets, the 13th Fleet and the surviving remnants of the others managed to withdraw due to Yang's tactics and cooperation with Bucock. Despite the Empire's ultimate victory, Reinhard was nonetheless frustrated with Yang being able to prevent him from achieving "total victory" over the remaining Alliance forces, taking out his anger on vice admiral [[Fritz Joseph Bittenfeld]] for a tactical blunder he made during the battle until Kircheis advised him to not make enemies of his subordinates. ({{logh|015}})<br />
<br />
Following their disastrous defeat, the devastated Alliance forces withdrew to Iserlohn Fortress with Yang's 13th Fleet remaining the only combat capable formation out of those that had taken part in the invasion. The Alliance had lost around two-thirds of its military strength, over twenty million troops. However, any thought of celebration in the Empire was quickly muted by a surprising development: the death of the Emperor from a heart attack. ({{logh|015|016}})<br />
<br />
===The Imperial Civil War===<br />
[[File:Erwin Josef II coronation.png|thumb|210px|left|Reinhard and Lichtenlade at the coronation of Erwin Josef ({{d|796|uc}})]]<br />
No sooner had the Free Planets Alliance been routed at Amritsar, did Reinhard learn that Kaiser Friedrich IV had died peacefully in his sleep, thus robbing Reinhard of his vengeance. There was no official heir-apparent since Crown Prince [[Ludwig]]'s death some years ago, thus it was inevitable that a struggle would occur over the throne between the Kaiser's immediate grandchildren: [[Elisabeth von Braunschweig]], [[Sabine von Littenheim]], and [[Erwin Josef II|Erwin Josef von Goldenbaum]]. The first two hailed from the two most powerful aristocratic families in the Empire, while Erwin Josef (five years old at the time) was the son of the deceased Crown Prince. Kaiser Friedrich's former minister of state and prime minister, Klaus von Lichtenlade, wanted to see the boy on the throne in order to be able to use him, rather than let either Otto von Braunschweig or Wilhelm von Littenheim take his position. Thus he sought Reinhard's assistance, as being a civil servant he had no military forces of his own. The young admiral foresaw this and chose to support Lichtenlade, although both harbored no illusions that they were merely using each other. Lichtenlade became the Imperial regent and elevated his peerage to Duke, while Reinhard gained the title of Marquis. ({{logh|016}})<br />
<br />
It was also during this time that he first met [[Hildegard von Mariendorf]], the daughter of Count [[Franz von Mariendorf]], a high noble family that decided to side with him in the coming struggle rather than Braunschweig. Hildegard visited him shortly before the beginning of the conflict and pledged her family's fealty to him, in exchange for a guarantee of their wealth and territory. She would play an important role in rallying some [[Nobility#Reformer Nobles|reformist nobles]] to Reinhard's camp. ({{logh|018}})<br />
<br />
Meanwhile, many of the high nobles saw this as a blatant attempt by Reinhard and Lichtenlade to usurp the Imperial throne from the Goldenbaum family, the final straw in what they saw as Reinhard's treason against the dynasty. These reactionary nobles, led by Duke von Braunschweig and Marquis von Littenheim, rallied and created their own organization to counter the influence of the Lohengramm–Lichtenlade axis and defend the old order, becoming known as the [[Lippstadt League]]. Their combined arms and wealth were greater than those of the central government, and so Reinhard struck preemptively in an attempt to pacify them. While they did seize control of government buildings and arrested some high nobles, the majority managed to escape, including Braunschweig and Littenheim. They gathered on [[Geiersburg Fortress]], their new headquarters, and named the renowned Imperial High Admiral [[Willibald Joachim von Merkatz]] as the commander-in-chief of the Lippstadt allied forces. As they were revolting against the child Kaiser, Reinhard had the nobles named the "Rebel Forces" in official documents, the same name that the Empire had used to refer to the Free Planets Alliance ever since the [[Battle of Dagon]] over 150 years earlier. Lichtenlade's government named Reinhard von Lohengramm the holder of all three offices of the Imperial Chiefs of Staff simultaneously, making him the Imperial Fleet Supreme Commander. ({{logh|016|018}})<br />
<br />
[[File:Reinhard 4.jpg|thumb|210px|Reinhard during the civil war ({{d|797|uc}})]]<br />
Reinhard himself oversaw the main operation against Geiersburg Fortress, while leaving his friend High Admiral Kircheis to pacify the noble-controlled frontier and other sectors. Under his command, the loyalist Imperial forces were able to drive the Lippstadt fleet back towards Geiersburg in the [[Freya Starzone]], where the high nobles took refuge in the fortress. Eventually, they left and attempted to [[Assault on Geiersburg Fortress|break the siege]], only to be beaten back. However, the Imperial Fleet's success over the numerically superior Lippstadt forces led to the nobles becoming increasingly aggravated. Whena revolt occurred on the planet [[Westerland]] and the local lord, [[Scheidt|a relative]] of Duke von Braunschweig, was murdered by his subjects, he ordered a nuclear strike on the planet. The Duke ignored the advice of his commanders and the attack was launched. Reinhard initially wanted to intercept it, but procrastinated in making a final decision as Oberstein wanted to let it go ahead and use it for propaganda purposes against the nobles. Oberstein did not tell Reinhard the correct time in which the attack would reach the planet, and it happened before he made a decision. A reconnaissance ship documented the [[Westerland Massacre|massacre]] and the images were beamed throughout the Empire, eliminating any of the popular support that the Lippstadt League might of had. However, the fact that Reinhard essentially played a role in this tragedy would haunt him for the rest of his life. ({{logh|020|022|089}})<br />
<br />
Not long after that, the nobles in Geiersburg became increasingly depressed while the fortress garrison became restless and began to rebel. Braunschweig decided to lead his forces in a final charge against the enemy, only for it to be routed. After he arrived at the fortress, a mass mutiny broke out among the troops and the Duke himself was forced to commit suicide by his chief retainer, Commodore [[Ansbach]]. Reinhard then arrived triumphantly at Geiersburg as the final resistance had ceased. However, when Ansbach presented the Duke's body to the victorious Reinhard, he pulled out a hidden weapon from within Braunschweig's corpse and attempted to fire at the young admiral. Siegfried Kircheis immediately attempted to shield Reinhard, and was killed as a result. Reinhard went into a inconsolable depression, and refused to see anyone. Seeing this, his admirals decided to take matters into their own hands. At the advice of Paul von Oberstein, both the assassination attempt and the murder of Kircheis were blamed on the Imperial Regent, Klaus von Lichtenlade. Reinhard's subordinates subsequently sent their fleets to the capital, Odin, to arrest Lichtenlade. ({{logh|023|025|026}})<br />
<br />
As Reinhard remained on Geiersburg, the Imperial fleets landed on Odin and seized control of the capital. Lichtenlade was arrested and forced to commit suicide, while the [[Imperial Seal]] was retrieved and transferred to Reinhard himself, thereby firmly established his new and total authority over the Empire. However, this victory was blackened by the death of Kircheis and the subsequent decision by his sister Annerose into withdrawing into seclusion on Odin, feeling guilty over her brother's friend's death. His remark to Oskar von Reuenthal over the fate of the defeated Lichtenlade's family, that he could also try challenging him if he felt he could do it, would also be the beginning of an emotional crisis in Reuenthal that would see its conclusion years later in a dramatic fashion. ({{logh|026}})<br />
<br />
==Prime minister==<br />
===Reforming the Reich===<br />
[[File:PMresidence.png|thumb|210px|Jubilant crowds in front of Prime Minister Lohengramm's [[Prime Minister's official residence|office]], Odin ({{d|798|uc}})]]<br />
With the fall of both Lichtenlade and the high nobles, Reinhard was left as the single most powerful figure in the country, and after being appointed Prime Minister of the Galactic Empire (simultaneously as the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet), Reinhard set about implementing drastic reforms. He received help from reformist nobles such as [[Hildegarde von Mariendorf]], [[Eugen Richter]], and [[Karl Braque]], the latter two being cabinet ministers who gave up their noble titles to serve Reinhard. The child Emperor Erwin Josef II was not a threat and was essentially a puppet, and thus Prime Minister Duke von Lohengramm became the ''de facto'' dictator of the Empire. Among those reforms he instituted early on, starting in January {{d|798|uc}}, were nationalizing the wealth of the defeated high nobles, which alleviated the Empire's economic problems in a single decision, as well as abolishing the traditional class system itself—much to the support of the common people. The promotion of civil liberties and other rights that would have been unthinkable just a couple of years ago became the new norm. Although the Goldenbaum Dynasty ''de jure'' remained in power, its foundations were effectively being swept away. However, despite his success in seizing control of the Empire, Reinhard continued to suffer an emotional crisis over the death of Kircheis and the withdrawal of his sister Annerose into seclusion as a result of Kircheis' death. ({{logh|027}})<br />
<br />
At the same time, during this early period of reform, the Lohengramm government became entangled in the plots of the Fezzani autonomous region leader, [[Adrian Rubinsky]]. Seeing that the Empire had been strengthened by its [[Imperial Civil War|civil war]] while the [[Alliance Civil War|one]] in the Alliance had weakened it, he decided to allow the Empire to conquer the devastated Alliance so that Fezzan could seize control of this new regime. To that effect, their first plan was to pitch the idea of putting warp-capable engines on Geiersburg Fortress and using it to attack Iserlohn, sending the information regarding that plan to the Imperial Fleet's science and technology inspector general, Admiral [[Anton Hilmer von Schaft]]. Schaft proposed the plan and it was accepted by Reinhard, but not with much enthusiasm, as the public and the Imperial leadership were largely not in favor of any more war and would rather have a period of rebuilding. Nonetheless, Reinhard authorized the plan to mobilize Geiersburg Fortress to Iserlohn, and the testing the new engines was successful on 18 March {{d|798|uc}}. At the same time, unbeknownst to Reinhard or the Empire, the Fezzanis had gone to work in arranging that Yang Wen-li, who had been appointed as commander-in-chief, Iserlohn, was summoned by the Alliance government away from the fortress before the Imperial attack. After Reinhard gave the order, Geiersburg entered the Iserlohn Corridor on April 10. ({{logh|028|029|030|031}})<br />
<br />
Even as the Geiersburg deployment was playing out, the Fezzanis hatched yet another scheme to keep the Alliance and Empire from realizing that they could coexist and make it inevitable that one had to destroy the other. As part of this scheme, two former Lippstadt League veterans who were living in exile on Fezzan, Count [[Alfred von Landsberg]] and Captain [[Leopold Schumacher]], were hired by Rubinsky's aide [[Rupert Kesserling]] to kidnap the child Emperor and bring him to the Alliance, where they would set up a "legitimate" [[Galactic Empire Legitimate Government|government-in-exile]] with the other high nobles. Ultimately, the Iserlohn garrison was able to hold out without Yang, and he eventually returned. At that point, the combined Alliance forces were able to defeat the Imperial invaders and destroy Geiersburg. This defeat enraged Reinhard, who had not expected [[Karl Gustav Kempff]] to lose 90% of his forces in this attempt. The young Imperial dictator had appointed Kempff to the position of Geiersburg commander, but had remarked he was the kind of admiral who was no longer useful if he lived too long. Although he outwardly mourned the demise of Kempff, it still made one of his chief retainers, High Admiral Oskar von Reuenthal, uneasy, and set the early seeds of what would manifest itself years later. But Reinhard remembered Kircheis, and how he would have urged restraint on Reinhard's part, and thus decided not to punish Kempff's returning second-in-command, Neidhart Müller. ({{logh|029|030|033|035}})<br />
<br />
===The Emperor's Abduction===<br />
[[File:Kaiserine Catherine coronation.png|thumb|210px|left|Prime Minister Lohengramm announcing the coronation of Empress Catherine ({{d|798|uc}})]]<br />
With the loss of the Geiersburg Fortress and the [[Kempff Fleet]] last spring, the Imperial public was largely against the idea of any further extended warfare, to Reinhard's annoyance. But the Fezzani plan that had been put in motion would culminate during the summer of {{d|798|uc}} and make another confrontation inevitable. In June, the Prime Minister was informed by the Military Police chief Ulrich Kesler that Landsberg and Schumacher arrived on the Imperial capital with Fezzani passports. He orders them to be tracked and after some discussions with his secretary, Hildegarde von Mariendorf, he summoned Fezzan's ambassador on Odin, [[Nicholas Boltik]]. Reinhard deduced the essence of the Fezzani plot to kidnap the child Kaiser, and essentially made a deal to go along with their plan to help him conquer the Alliance, with the kidnapping and the government-in-exile that would be created providing the necessary ''casus belli''. Both men left the discussion being convinced that they were successfully using each other, although Boltik did not surmise the extent of Reinhard's own plan, which was to use the demilitarized Fezzan Corridor to take the Alliance by surprise and avoid attacking Iserlohn. Boltik said he would ask his government about it, but Reinhard secretly made up his mind to seize control of it forcefully. ({{logh|036}})<br />
<br />
Because of this, Reinhard basically permitted Landsberg and Schumacher to go ahead and kidnap the Emperor. On the night of July 6–7, the two Lippstadt veterans carry out their plan and kidnap Erwin Josef II from his palace. Fezzan arranged for them to be taken by a smuggler through the Fezzan Corridor to the Alliance, where they used their influence to make sure the Alliance government under [[Job Trunicht]] went along with their plan. Meanwhile, the young Imperial leader declared a state of emergency and convened a meeting of the High Command, in which he told his admirals to place their fleets into immediate combat readiness. Later, a broadcast from the Alliance revealed the composition of the new "Galactic Empire Legitimate Government" under the Kaiser and led by premier [[Jochen von Remscheid]], a high noble Lippstadt supporter and former Imperial high commissioner to Fezzan. Trunicht also stated the Free Planets Alliance's willingness to assist the former Goldenbaum loyalists in a united front against Reinhard. On August 20, Reinhard officially confirmed the kidnapping of Erwin Josef II and denounced the Alliance government for its responsibility in this matter, thus essentially declaring war. ({{logh|036|037|038}})<br />
<br />
On September 20, Reinhard von Lohengramm proclaimed the abdication of the kidnapped Erwin Josef II, and named eight-month old infant [[Catherine von Goldenbaum]] as his successor on the throne, making her the Empire's first Kaiserin, as well as the 38th and last Goldenbaum monarch. ({{logh|041}})<br />
<br />
===Operation Ragnarök: Fall of the Alliance===<br />
[[File:Reinhard sun(DVD-CA).jpg|thumb|210px|Reinhard arriving on occupied Fezzan ({{d|799|uc}})]]<br />
An invasion plan was quickly developed by Reinhard and his admirals, which was based on using the Fezzan Corridor to invade the Alliance. Boltik decided to cooperate with Reinhard and was to be appointed as the interim governor-general of Fezzan after its occupation. Reinhard then officially announced an operation against Iserlohn, while leaving out the part of their plan to invade Fezzan (which Yang Wen-li foresaw, but was ignored by his government). On the same day that Empress Catherine I was put on the throne, High Admiral Oskar von Reuenthal led a fleet to attack Iserlohn Fortress. The attack served its purpose, to distract the Alliance leadership, while the bulk of Reinhard von Lohengramm's fleets then entered the Fezzan Corridor. In December of {{d|798|uc}}, High Admiral Wolfgang Mittermeyer, the Gale Wolf, successfully invaded and occupied the Dominion of Fezzan, taking Rubinsky completely by surprise and forcing him to go into hiding. Once the planet was firmly under the control of Mittermeyer's forces (although Rubinsky was able to evade capture), the rest of Reinhard's fleets entered Fezzani space. When Duke Reinhard von Lohengramm disembarked the ''Brünhild'' on Fezzan's surface, he was met by the loud cheering of tens of thousands of Imperial sailors, all chanting, 'Sieg mein Kaiser! Sieg Kaiser Reinhard!' The young Imperial dictator celebrated New Year's with his officers on Fezzan before continuing the campaign. ({{logh|041|042|043|044}})<br />
<br />
The first stage of [[Operation Ragnarök]], to secure Fezzan while launching a distraction near Iserlohn, was completed and set the Alliance people and government into a panic. The combined defeats at Astarte, Amritsar, and the civil war had effectively destroyed most of the Free Planets Star Fleet's fighting forces, leaving the [[Yang Fleet]] on Iserlohn and the [[1st Fleet]] on Heinessen as the only combat capable formations. Although the Fleet General Staff Office gave Yang clearance to "do what you think is best", in other words giving him permission to abandon Iserlohn and to come fight against the main Imperial force, some time was necessary for this to be carried out. Meanwhile, the 1st Fleet set forth from the Alliance capital to meet the advancing Imperial forces (the [[Mittermeyer Fleet]] entered Alliance space from the Fezzan Corridor on 8 January {{d|799|uc}}), along with various reserve and systems defense squadrons that collectively became the [[14th Fleet]] and [[15th Fleet]]. This new Combined Fleet was under overall command of Admiral Bucock, the commander-in-chief of the Space Fleet. The two forces clashed in the [[Battle of Rantemario]] (February {{d|799|uc}}), and despite being outnumbered the Alliance forces put up a fierce resistance that ultimately failed to achieve its objective of defeating the Imperials. The Yang Fleet, leaving Iserlohn Fortress for Reuenthal to retake, was not able to arrive in time to prevent them from being defeated, but did distract the Imperial Fleet with an attack from the rear to give time for the surviving Alliance vessels under Bucock to withdraw, and in the coming weeks Admiral Yang waged a guerrilla war against the Imperial invaders. ({{logh|044|045|046|048|049}})<br />
<br />
The Alliance Secretary of Defense [[Walter Islands]] agreed to Yang's plan of using harassment raids on Imperial supply convoys and defeating other Imperial fleets to draw out Reinhard and kill him in battle, which could end the Imperial invasion. Yang was able to successfully destroy the poorly-guarded supply convoy, much to Reinhard's annoyance, who had Rear Admiral [[Sombart]] punished for his failure to defend it. The young Alliance hero was also able to defeat other second-tier admirals under Reinhard, deliberately avoiding Reuenthal and Mittermeyer (Reinhard's "twin pillars"), and finally got Reinhard to decide to draw out Yang by coming to battle himself. ({{logh|049|050}})<br />
<br />
===The Battle of Vermilion===<br />
[[File:Yang Reinhard Vermilion encounter.jpg|thumb|left|210px|The two fleets at Vermillion ({{d|799|uc}})]]<br />
Since the Alliance hoped that that Reinhard's death could cause the Galactic Empire to fragment into another civil war and knowing this, the young conqueror dispersed his admirals, keeping only a relatively small main fleet with himself. He hoped that by using himself as bait he would draw Yang into an open confrontation. This strategy succeeded, and the two opposing fleets reached each other in the [[Vermillion Starzone]] on April 24. In the [[Battle of Vermillion]], Reinhard chose to use attrition tactics to wear down the Alliance forces, however, after Yang was unable to reach the ''Brünhild'', he tried to use a different approach. He used several asteroids from a nearby asteroid field and use his vessels to launch them towards Reinhard's formation, which was then thrown into disarray. However, while Yang then continued towards Reinhard's now exposed flagship, the [[Müller Fleet]] arrived in the system (the first Imperial unit to return) and prevented the Alliance from breaking through. Thus Niedhart Müller redeemed himself for the Geiersburg failure last year, and secured a reputation as the third most capable fleet commander after Reuenthal and Mittermeyer, becoming known as "Iron Wall" Müller. ({{logh|051|052}})<br />
<br />
However, the Müller Fleet was caught in an encirclement along with the bulk of Reinhard's remaining forces by the Alliance, and Yang led a detachment to attack the ''Brünhild''. It was the first tactical defeat in battle that Reinhard faced in his life. However, before they could open fire and finish him off, the Alliance fleet suddenly received an order to stand down and ask for a ceasefire. Hildegard von Mariendorf had foreseen Yang's victory over Reinhard because she believed he was a better tactician, and had asked Reuenthal and Mittermeyer to take their forces to seize the undefended Heinessen, the capital, and forced the Alliance government to surrender. The plan succeeded and the [[High Council]] under Trunicht completely surrendered, ordering Yang to stand down. Yang, although urged by subordinates like [[Walter von Schönkopf]] to fire anyway, decided to obey the order and asked Reinhard for a ceasefire. Soon after, the battle was over and more Imperial fleets began returning to the Vermillion Starzone. The battle became the first and only tactical defeat of Reinhard in his life, although it was ultimately an Imperial strategic victory thanks to Hildegard von Mariendorf's actions. ({{logh|052|053}})<br />
<br />
==New Galactic Empire==<br />
===Establishing a new state===<br />
[[File:Reinhard with crown at throne (BD).jpg|thumb|210px|Reinhard with the crown at his coronation ({{d|799|uc}})]]<br />
Shortly after the battle, Yang boarded a shuttle and arrived on the ''Brünhild'', where he discussed philosophy with Reinhard regarding democracy versus dictatorship, and the two left the discussion agreeing to disagree. In the end, Yang declined Reinhard's offer to make him an Imperial Fleet Admiral, while Reinhard maintained the belief that Yang would have been willing to give up on the Alliance and join him. The young Imperial leader allowed Yang to depart and gave him assurances that he would not exact any revenge on Alliance politicians or military officers. Having secured the Alliance government's surrender, one of the final acts of the Lohengramm government under Goldenbaum rule was to conclude the signing of the [[Treaty of Ba'alat]], which essentially made the Alliance a client state of the Empire. Reinhard himself returned to Odin after appointing [[Helmut Lennenkampf]] as the Imperial consul on Heinessen and on 20 June {{D|799|uc}}, Duke [[Jürgen Offer von Pegnitz]], the father and Imperial regent of the young Kaiserin, signed a letter of abdication on her behalf, seceding her position to the blond admiral. Thus ended the nearly five hundred-year history of the Goldenbaum Dynasty. His coronation as the Kaiser was on June 22, held with a modest ceremony organized by Count [[Franz von Mariendorf]] (Hildegard's father), that Reinhard said would serve as a template from then on as opposed to the pompous and wasteful Goldenbaum era national ceremonies. With his victory over the Alliance, he had become the first [[Goldenlöwe Dynasty]] Kaiser of the [[New Galactic Empire]] and most powerful individual in the galaxy. However, Reinhard was disappointed that the two people he wanted to see there the most—Kircheis and Annerose—were not there. ({{logh|054|055}})<br />
<br />
In the weeks after the coronation, he accelerated the internal reforms that he began as Prime Minister of the previous dynasty. Reinhard chose to continue on as the head of government himself while also being head of state, naming Count Franz von Mariendorf as his deputy, the Minister of State. The young ruler later lamented that had Kircheis been alive, he could have focused solely on political affairs while leaving his friend to manage the military. Reinhard appointed Minister of Industry [[Bruno von Silberberch]] to design the new Imperial City on Fezzan, revealing that he intended to move the Imperial capital there from Odin. He also commissioned the minister of education, Professor [[Seeferd]], to write an official history of the Goldenbaum Dynasty, and later reviewed the formerly secret, now declassified information on Goldenbaum emperors that Seeferd had uncovered. Around the same time, Paul von Oberstein—now the Minister of Military Affairs under the new dynasty—suggested to Reinhard to idea of getting married and producing an heir to secure his rule. However, he implied that the most likely candidate, Hildegard, was not fit for the role as he did not want her to monopolize affairs of the state and become another Kircheis, in essence. Reinhard dismissed such worries from Oberstein and did not take his suggestion too seriously at the time. ({{logh|055|057|058|059}})<br />
<br />
However, during that period, Reinhard paid a visit to the terminally-ill Baron [[Heinrich von Kümmel]]'s estate, as a favor for Count von Mariendorf, who was his guardian. However, the event ended badly when Kümmel tried to take Reinhard hostage with some explosives installed in his backyard under their dining table. He did it mainly out a desire to not die without being remembered for something in history, but the event had actually been organized by the [[Terraism|Terraist Church]]. The assassination attempt on the Kaiser failed, however, when Reinhard hit the bomb detonation switch out of the Baron's hand. The plot resulted in Reinhard ordering the persecution of the Terraist Church, a religion that was previously tolerated by the Empire. Despite [[Internal Security Department]] chief [[Heydrich Lang]], a subordinate of interior minister [[Osmayer]], protesting that they needed more time to conduct a full investigation, Reinhard decided to shut it down by force. Its Odin branch was shut down by force, and soon the new Kaiser ordered an expedition to [[Earth]], the Church headquarters, in order to pacify the group of fanatics for their attempt on his life. For this task he assigned Admiral [[August Samuel Wahlen]]. The Mariendorfs, who were temporarily put under house arrest after the incident, were reinstated in their offices by an edict from the Kaiser and any talk about their involvement in treasonous activity was banned. ({{logh|057|058}})<br />
<br />
===War with Earth and Lennenkampf affair===<br />
[[File:ImperialWAFVgunhatch.jpg|thumb|left|210px|Imperial soldiers subjugating the Earth Church on Odin ({{d|799|uc}})]]<br />
Wahlen was dispatched to Earth by Reinhard shortly after the assassination plot, and he managed to successfully subjugate the planet, although the Terraist ideology did not die out completely. Wahlen himself nearly became the victim of an assassination plot by the Terraists and had to get a prosthetic arm after being stabbed with a poisonous knife. Meanwhile, a situation was developing in the Alliance which would soon become a headache for Reinhard. The Imperial consul assigned to Heinessen became increasingly hostile towards the retired Yang Wen-li, who was living a quiet life as a pensioner, due to rumors about his involvement with anti-Imperial resistance groups and hysteria from the incumbent Alliance administration under [[João Rebelo]] (Trunicht's successor, who resigned after Vermillion). The situation deteriorated when a resistance cell established by Yang immediately after Vermillion—led by High Admiral Willibald Joachim von Merkatz, the former Lippstadt commander who defected to the Alliance after the Imperial Civil War and served as Yang's ally—had hijacked decommissioned Alliance warships on 17 July {{d|799|uc}}. Lennenkampf was worried about Yang's intentions and the postwar Alliance government's ability to keep stability in the client state. ({{logh|054|058|060|063}})<br />
<br />
Oberstein spoke with the Imperial consul and told him that Yang should be arrest preemptively so that Reinhard can use the subsequent uprising from anti-Imperial groups that would be the result as an excuse to completely annex the Alliance. Meanwhile, Supreme Council Chairman Rebelo decided to arrest him first to not give the New Empire a chance to intervene. This ended up causing members of the elite Rosen Ritter regiment—against whom Reinhard fought back in his days as a mere commodore in the Imperial Fleet, on Van-Fleet—to rise up and kidnap Rebelo on Heinessen. They took him hostage and used it to secure their escape, although the government decided to try to execute the arrested Yang regardless. However, the Rosen Ritter freed Yang and escaped from the planet after storming the Imperial consulate and taking Lennenkampf himself hostage. With the consul as their hostage, the rebels were able to depart from Heinessen. Unbeknownst to the rest of the public, Lennenkampf actually committed suicide in his cell, but the just pretended that he was still alive to get away. Although Reinhard did not immediately react to the events that unfolded on Heinessen, he did formalize his plan to move the Imperial capital to Fezzan from Odin around the same time, indicating he intended to eventually annex the Alliance completely. ({{logh|060|061|062|065}})<br />
<br />
In the midst of this, the planet [[El Facil]] declared independence from the Alliance and became an independent state on August 13, and began trying to aggressively recruit Fleet Admiral Yang. The Rebelo administration denounced this move and thus El Facil became isolated. However, shortly after that a report on the situation from Admiral Steinmetz and the head of the Imperial consulate on Heinessen since Lennenkampf's death, Vice Admiral [[Sahm]], explained to Reinhard what had occurred, and the Kaiser made his decision. Given the rift between Yang and the Alliance administration, Reinhard again considered the possibility of Yang joining him. That was why in his official broadcast on November 10 explaining the events on Heinessen to the public, he left an open offer for Yang to join him, condemning the Alliance government for selling out both Lennenkampf and Yang. The Kaiser also announced that the Treaty of Ba'alat had been violated, and this could only be rectified with force. The next day he announced to his admirals the personnel decisions for the second Ragnarök operation. ({{logh|065|066|067}})<br />
<br />
===Ragnarök again===<br />
[[File:Brunhild.jpg|thumb|210px|''Brünhild'' at Marr-Adetta ({{d|800|uc}})]]<br />
While Yang ended up deciding to go to El Facil and planned to retake Iserlohn Fortress, Reinhard commanded the main Imperial fleet on its march into Alliance space for a second time, in December {{d|799|uc}}. In January the fleet engaged the remnants of the Free Planets Star Fleet under Alexandre Bucock's command, who utilized the dangerous terrain of the [[Marr-Adetta Starzone]] to his advantage in order to make up for the vast numerical difference. After brief encounters in a corridor running through an asteroid belt, Bucock's fleet attacked the Imperial formation from the rear. They were able to break through the Müller Fleet towards Reinhard's flagship only to be surrounded by the Imperial forces. Reinhard, on the suggestion of Hildegard von Mariendorf, offered Bucock a chance to surrender, but the old man refused, instead choosing annihilation. Afterwards, the young kaiser was enraged when heard of Lutz's loss of Iserlohn Fortress to Yang Wen-li, but decided to ignore it for now and continue on to Heinessen. ({{logh|068|069|070|071}})<br />
<br />
On 9 February {{d|800|Uc}}, Reinhard became the first emperor to set foot on Heinessen, as the Free Planets Alliance unconditionally surrendered to the New Empire. On February 20, the 273-year history of the Alliance is ended, with the state being annexed by the New Galactic Empire. Among his first acts was to have Alliance Joint Operations HQ chief Admiral [[Rockwell]] executed, who had killed Supreme Council Chairman Rebelo in the hope of buying security from Reinhard. Quite the opposite, he acquired the Kaiser's hatred for committing such a shameless act. Reinhard immediately contemplated a campaign against the [[El Facil Revolutionary Government]], or more specifically, Yang Wen-li at Iserlohn. However, an incident that demanded the Kaiser's attention prevented any immediate military action against the republicans. The scheming [[Heydrich Lang]], head of the [[Internal Security Department]] and one of the few Goldenbaum era high officials to keep a post under Reinhard's new regime, accused the Chief of the High Command Office, Oskar von Reuenthal, of being guilty of treason. The circumstances surrounding Reuenthal's relationship to a woman of the deposed Lichtenlade clan, [[Elfriede von Kohlrausch]], became the main 'evidence' of treason. Remembering the heterochromatic admiral's pledge of fealty back in {{d|795|uc}}, Reinhard did not agree with Lang's accusations against one of his most important vassals, one of the Twin Pillars of the Goldenlöwe Dynasty, and reinstated Reuenthal. Instead of remaining as Chief of High Command, however, he was instead granted another post by the Kaiser—that of Governor-General of the [[Neue Land|former Alliance territories]]. Although this was Kaiser Reinhard recognizing Reuenthal's loyalty and service, it ultimately would lead to tragedy in the future. ({{logh|073|074|075|076}})<br />
<br />
===The Battle of the Corridor===<br />
[[File:Corridor beam barrage.jpg|left|thumb|210px|The Imperial fleet entering the Corridor ({{d|800|uc}})]]<br />
Having secured the Alliance territories and leaving them to Reuenthal's administration, the Kaiser ordered his admirals [[Fritz Joseph Bittenfeld]] and [[Adalbert von Fahrenheit]] to secure the space around the Iserlohn Corridor. Their fleets departed on 23 March {{d|800|uc}}. A terrorist bombing occurred on Fezzan in April that resluted in the death of industry minister Silberberch, while Oberstein and Cornelius Lutz escaped with minor injuries. Reinhard continued with the Iserlohn operation, however. Before the Kaiser could arrive at the front, Bittenfeld and Fahrenheit disobeyed his orders and engaged the Yang Fleet ("El Facil Revolutionary Reserve Force"), being led by [[Dusty Attemborough]]'s squadron into the corridor. Ultimately, the Imperial force was defeated by Yang's tactics and Fahrenheit became the first high admiral of the new dynasty to be killed in battle. Outraged at the result and that they did not wait for his arrival, Reinhard still did not punish Bittenfeld and had Fahrenheit be posthumously promoted to fleet admiral. ({{logh|076|077|079}})<br />
<br />
Attemborough's squadron had lined the entrance to the Iserlohn Corridor with mines, though the Empire used directional Seffle particles to break through it and attack the Yang Fleet. After some fighting, the El Facil Revolutionary Reserve Force used the narrow confines of the corridor to its advantage and nearly reached the Imperial Supreme Flagship, resulting in the death of High Admiral Karl Robert Steinmetz. They were unable to reach Reinhard, though, and the battle fell into a stalemate. Bittenfeld's [[Black Lancers]] unknowingly killed [[Edwin Fischer]], Yang's deputy fleet commander and specialist in fleet maneuvers, severely crippling the Yang Fleet's ability to continue a coordinated fight. However, before the Imperial Fleet could deliver the ''coup de grâce'' to the remaining Alliance forces—suffering from less personnel and supplies—Kaiser Reinhard fell ill and requested a ceasefire with Yang. Admiral Yang and his colleagues accepted the Imperial offer, as their intention had been to last long enough to "win" a peace treaty with the New Empire. Reinhard later revealed that his memories of Kircheis were what led him to declare a ceasefire, claiming that Kircheis told him to become a friend of his constant rival. ({{logh|080|081|082}})<br />
<br />
However, Yang never made it to the peace talks: his cruiser, ''[[Leda II]]'', was intercepted by Imperial destroyers crewed by Terraist sympathizers, who used their disguises to get aboard and kill Yang, among many others. He died of blood loss on 1 June {{d|800|uc}}. The Kaiser was devastated by Yang's death, as he believed only he had the right to kill the man who had outwitted him on multiple occasions. In the end, the young monarch sent High Admiral Müller as his representative to the Iserlohn republicans to express condolences and discuss the future relations between the Empire and the republican faction, as the El Facil Revolutionary Government chose to disband itself, thus forcing Yang's successors to establish the [[Iserlohn Republic]]. Reinhard himself continued to manage Imperial political affairs from his sickbed, regretting that he had few political experts equivalent to his admirals' capability in military affairs. Because of this the Kaiser lamented the deaths of Bruno von Silberberch, a potential candidate for the post of prime minister, and Kircheis, to whom he could have left the management of the military while focusing on civil administration. ({{logh|082|083|084}})<br />
<br />
===Political intrigues===<br />
[[File:Capital transfer order.jpg|thumb|210px|Kaiser Reinhard announcing the moving of the capital ({{d|800|uc}})]]<br />
Although Reinhard did not recognize the Republic, he made no move to attack it, as with Yang's death it became mostly irrelevant to him. The Iserlohn faction lost a large number of personnel, who decided to leave upon the loss of Admiral Yang. But the political chaos in the galaxy was not over. As the Kaiser gave the official order to transfer the Imperial Capital from Odin to Fezzan, his admirals became entangled with the meddling of Heydrich Lang in political affairs, who was secretly in contact with Fezzani leader Rubinsky. Reinhard also reluctantly granted the disgraced Alliance politician Job Trunicht a post as a senior councilor at the Neue Land Governor-General's Office, initially expecting him to refuse to return to the former country he sold out, but was amazed by the man's shamelessness when Trunicht accepted the position. During that time he also had an audience with not only Fleet Admiral Mittermeyer (who served as Reinhard's Space Fleet Commander-in-Chief), but also his wife [[Evangelin Mittermeyer|Evangelin]]. With Mittermeyer he also reminisced of the time he first met Reuenthal. ({{logh|084|085|086|087}})<br />
<br />
While he was visiting a memorial in August {{d|800|uc}} that commemorated the dead soldiers of the Imperial Fleet, he was the victim of an assassination attempt by someone in the crowd. The attempt was easily prevented by the [[Imperial Guard]] but the man publicly accused Reinhard of complicity in the Westerland Massacre three years ago, back during the Lippstadt Rebellion. The Kaiser was depressed by that event and could not forgive himself for the few million deaths on Westerland, and so he ordered the man who made the attempt to not be executed—while the penalty for attempted regicide under the Goldenbaum Dynasty had been death for the criminal and his entire family. But shortly after this incident, the Kaiser ended up being consoled by Hildegard, who spent the night with him. The next day the flustered Reinhard went to the Mariendorf estate to ask for Hildegard's hand in marriage, wanting to take responsibility for what happened and not be like the promiscuous high nobles had been. ({{logh|089}})<br />
<br />
Meanwhile, the remaining Terraists sought to overthrow Reinhard and did not want him to produce an heir with a future wife. Their main plan became to provoke Oskar von Reuenthal into rebellion, and use that to bring down his new dynasty. On Fezzan, Adrian Rubinsky began a similar plot, using Heydrich Lang as a tool to carry this out. By September, rumors began to circulate that Reuenthal would invite the Kaiser on a trip to the Neue Land and assassinate him there, and in order to test Reinhard's belief in these rumors Reuenthal made an invitation for him to visit Heinessen. The Kaiser accepted and while he made a stop over on [[Uruvasi]], a planet near the Alliance exit of the Fezzan Corridor, he was the subject of another assassination attempt—this time by mutinying and confused Imperial troops. High Admiral Cornelius Lutz was killed defending him and buying time for Reinhard to escape back to his flagship, at which point the ''Brünhild'' left the planet and disappeared for a short while as it made its way back to Fezzan. Upon hearing of this, Fleet Admiral Reuenthal ordered his subordinates to locate and protect the emperor while also dispatching Admiral [[Alfred Grillpalzer]] to restore order on Uruvasi and investigate the mutiny. However, the truth behind the incident on Uruvasi would not be known for some time. ({{logh|090|091|092}})<br />
<br />
===Reuenthal Rebellion===<br />
[[File:Mittermeyer aiming Lang.JPG|thumb|210px|left|Mittermeyer nearly killing Lang over the Reuenthal affair ({{d|800|uc}})]]<br />
With the events on Uruvasi and the death of Lutz, Reuenthal realized that he was being turned into a traitor but could not bring himself to go beg for forgiveness from Reinhard, and by extent, Heydrich Lang behind him. Instead, the prideful admiral, who had ambitions of obtaining power for himself in the past, decided to actually start a revolt. Having secured the loyalty of his staff, including admirals Grillpalzer and [[Bruno von Knappstein]], he set about gaining access to the Iserlohn Corridor from the republicans in exchange for the entire former Alliance territory, but they ultimately declined the offer. The Kaiser was infuriated by Reuenthal's actions and perception that he was being controlled by Lang, who ultimately was investigated and found guilty by Admiral Kesler of having poisoned [[Nicholas Boltik]], the former Fezzan interim governor-general, in prison. Reinhard ordered Reuenthal's best friend, Wolfgang Mittermeyer, to lead the space fleet to pacify his rebellion, as the Kaiser attacking a vassal himself would agitate his other subordinates. Mittermeyer understood that and accepted the mission with a heavy heart, still thinking he might get Reuenthal to stand down. On 14 November {{d|800|uc}}, the Space Fleet Commander-in-Chief led a fleet of some 42,000 ships, along with admirals Wahlen and Bittenfeld, against Reuenthal's Neue Land Security Force. ({{logh|093|094}})<br />
<br />
Further attempts to mend the situation by different parties amount to nothing, and Reuenthal realized that he needed to win a victory to secure the morale of his men, whom he told they are fighting against villainous vassals misleading Reinhard. Ultimately, Reuenthal's forces were defeated during the [[Second Battle of Rantemario]], in which he was fatally wounded, and thus ending his short-lived revolt. Mittermeyer arrived on Heinessen shortly after Reuenthal and visited his friend for the final time, who by then had died in his office. Around the same time, it became known to Kaiser Reinhard and his subordinates of the roles of Grillpalzer and Lang, after an investigation by Admiral Ernest Mecklinger into the events that had transpired on Uruvasi, as well as the Terraist involvement. Lang, hearing of Reuenthal's death, confessed to everything and was subsequently executed, and Grillpalzer was quite likely given the same punishment for his role in covering up the truth behind Uruvasi. Reinhard, who realizes the Mittermeyer is the only one left he could truly depend on, allowed him to adopt Reuenthal's baby son, [[Felix Mittermeyer]]. Around December {{d|800|uc}}, Hildegard revealed that she was pregnant with the Kaiser's child, and accepted his marraige proposal. ({{logh|095|096|097|098|099}})<br />
<br />
===Final months===<br />
[[File:Reinhard and Hildegard wedding.JPG|thumb|210px|Kaiser Reinhard and Kaiserin Hildegard at their wedding ({{d|801|uc}})]]<br />
Reinhard began to get sick more frequently, although the cause of it was initially unknown. Meanwhile, he finally got married to Hildegard von Mariendorf shortly after the new year party in January {{d|801|uc}}, the wedding celebration being on the 29th of that month. Hildegard had been his longtime political advisor since the events of the Imperial Civil War and the potential candidate for his consort in the view of Reinhard's admirals. Meanwhile, riots broke out on Heinessen as a result of a food shortage, something Oberstein interrupted the wedding for to report to the Kaiser. Around that time Count von Mariendorf retired from the office of Minister of State in order to not have too much power as the father of the empress, much to the approval of Oberstein, and the Kaiser offered Fleet Admiral Mittermeyer that position. Also to Reinhard's gladness, his sister Grand Duchess Annerose stepped out of seclusion to attend the wedding, which she supported, and began to visit the pregnant Hildegard on Fezzan. ({{logh|100}})<br />
<br />
Although the riots on the former Alliance capital were pacified, another problem arose in February as [[Julian Mintz]], Yang Wen-li's successor as the leader of the Iserlohn Republic, decided to go to battle against the Kaiser. The Imperial admiralty had pondered the question of their own expedition and decided against it because of the strain to the national treasury, but had no choice now that the republicans were making a move. They scored an initial victory over the [[Wahlen Fleet]] in the Iserlohn Corridor and prompted Reinhard to personally lead an expedition. Reinhard fell ill again, however, thus leaving the Heinessen and Iserlohn questions to be resolved by his admirals. The news of the republican victory at the [[Eleventh Battle of Iserlohn]] encouraged republican agitation on Heinessen. Oberstein infuriated Bittenfeld, Müller, and Wahlen with his plan of using arrested former Alliance officials as hostages to force the Iserlohn republicans to sign a peace agreement. Their argument escalated and Bittenfeld tried to attack Oberstein, resulting in him being placed under house arrest and infighting breaking out between military police under Oberstein's Ministry of Military Affairs and the sailors of Bittenfeld's Black Lancers. Meanwhile, the Kaiser himself heard of this increasingly dangerous situation and traveled to Heinessen personally, ordering the release of the political prisoners after a riot at [[Rugpool Prison]] and bombings throughout [[Heinessenopolis]], asking to negotiate with the Iserlohn republicans. In addition, Rubinsky was apprehended by Oberstein's agents and taken into custody. ({{logh|101|102|103|104|105}})<br />
<br />
In May {{d|801|uc}}, despite the Terraists' attempt to attack Hildegard's residence, she gave birth to [[Alexander Siegfried von Lohengramm]], the prince of the new dynasty, at [[Fezzan Medical University Hospital]]. ({{logh|106}})<br />
<br />
===The Battle of Shiva===<br />
[[File:Brunhildboarded.jpg|left|thumb|210px|''Brünhild'' at Shiva ({{d|801|uc}})]]<br />
Meanwhile in the same month, a minor skirmish between Iserlohn Republic and New Galactic Empire forces would escalate into the final confrontation between the two factions, the [[Battle of Shiva]]. Fighting broke out between a squadron from each side over the escort of a civilian refugee ship, and both sides continued bringing in reinforcements in order to not back down. Julian Mintz wanted to win respect and a right to negotiate on an equal footing with Kaiser Reinhard, while the young ruler wanted both to subjugate them and to test Mintz's abilities. During the battle, the republicans noted the sluggishness of the Imperial Fleet's movements, which was due to Reinhard's impeded command ability from his deteriorating health. A communications blackout eventually occurred between the Imperial forces and HQ as they tried to conceal Reinhard's sudden collapse and unconsciousness. Eventually, the Iserlohn fleet took advantage of it and charged straight for the Supreme Flagship ''Brünhild''. A number of republican ships made it through the Imperial defenders and a boarding vessel made contact with ''Brünhild'''s hull. Getting aboard, the elite Rosen Ritter unit fought the defenders in an attempt to buy time for Mintz to locate the Kaiser, which he eventually was able to do. ({{logh|107|108}})<br />
<br />
Outside, Bittenfeld's Black Lancers and the [[Eisenach Fleet]] managed to fight the rest of the Iserlohn fleet back and dealt them heavy losses, causing the death of their commander, Admiral Merkatz. But on ''Brünhild'', Mintz made it to the Kaiser's chamber and was granted an audience for negotiations, and thus an order for a ceasefire was immediately broadcast to all ships from the Imperial HQ, saving the remnants of the Republic's battered fleet. ({{Logh|108}})<br />
<br />
==Death==<br />
[[File:Finale.PNG|210px|thumb|right|Kaiser Reinhard in his sickbed ({{d|801|uc}})]]<br />
Upon the Imperial expeditionary force's and the Republic fleet's return from Iserlohn to Heinessen on 10 June {{d|801|uc}}, news of Kaiser Reinhard's terminal illness was announced. There both the Kaiser and Mintz discussed the future of the galaxy, including the idea of giving Heinessen autonomy in return for Iserlohn Fortress, or the possibility of implementing a constitution in the Empire. However, Reinhard commented that Julian Mintz would have to discuss the details with Hildegard von Lohengramm, who would be his successor's Imperial regent. Reinhard was eventually diagnosed with a heretofore undiscovered, degenerative disease. Labelled the ' Emperor's Sickness', this malady took Reinhard's life at the age of 25. Even then he was briefly subjected to an attack by the Terraists after Oberstein used a false rumor of Reinhard's recovery to draw out the remaining followers of the Church, which ultimately was stopped but resulted in Oberstein's death. Reinhard von Lohengramm, first Emperor of the New Galactic Empire, died on 26 July {{d|801|uc}}, surrounded by his top admirals, officials, and relatives. Upon his death, Hildegard von Lohengramm assumed rule over the New Galactic Empire as Regent for the infant Alexander Siegfried. ({{logh|109|110}})<br />
<br />
==Legacy==<br />
Reinhard's life was characterized by a strong sense of justice and personal responsibility. By his own efforts, he claimed dominion over the galaxy, uprooting the old order and overthrowing the three major powers that had previously shared the universe for over a century: the Goldenbaum Dynasty, the Free Planets Alliance, and the Dominion of Fezzan. His enduring wish was to see his New Galactic Empire ruled not by blood but by merit, even if it meant the end of his dynasty. Reinhard may have been the perfect autocrat, but the abilities and personalities of his successors were unknown, paralleling the situation after [[Rudolf von Goldenbaum]] had founded the Empire. Given the groundwork he laid, however, and the moderate influences of his wife, supported by Fleet Admiral Mittermeyer, and the concessions to autonomy for the [[Ba'alat Starzone]] and more representative rule in the whole Empire, it was probable the transition to the early years of the post-Reinhard Empire was reasonably smooth.<br />
<br />
==Personal life==<br />
Reinhard von Lohengramm's desire to take over the universe had originated when his sister Annerose was taken from him and became a concubine at the Imperial court for Kaiser Friedrich IV. The bond between Reinhard, Kircheis, and Annerose was extremely close and served as the stimulus for his meteoric rise to the top, and when it was permanently broken following the Lippstadt War, Reinhard became a changed man. The only outsiders that came the closest to filling the void were Hildegard, his eventual wife, and perhaps Mittermeyer and Reuenthal given their pledge of loyalty and friendship with him, but to a much lesser extent.<br />
<br />
His political views were a mixture of both monarchism and republicanism, as he neither wanted to leave the fate of humanity to the whim of the masses, nor to the prodigal aristocrats who cared about their lineage. Although he opposed elections, neither did he particularly want a hereditary monarchy, and believed that his successor should be the most capable person for the position. In a choice between dictatorship and democracy, however, Reinhard preferred the former. He did have some other firm principles, including his belief in meritocracy and that one should be willing to lead his troops from the front line personally. But ultimately Reinhard's chief concern was the attainment of his ambitions to become the most powerful man in the universe and return to him what had been lost, namely, his sister Annerose.<br />
<br />
Reinhard had respect for Yang Wen-li personally and was willing to debate him on his principles on what could be described as an equal level, a stark difference from his attitude of utter contempt towards the elected Alliance politicians or the ruling nobles in the Goldenbaum empire. He also respected others that were particularly competent or principled, pardoning low level Alliance bureaucrats that refused to turn over sensitive documents and even commenting that had people like them been in charge the Alliance would never have fallen.<br />
<br />
Reinhard also disdained cowardice and treachery, executing the soldiers who murdered president Rebalo to curry favor with him.<br />
<br />
==Appendices==<br />
===Appearances===<br />
<div class="appear"><br />
*{{mciss}} (first appearance)<br />
*{{logh}}<br />
**{{e|001}}<br />
**{{e|002}}<br />
**{{e|004}}<br />
**{{e|005}}<br />
**{{e|008}}<br />
**{{e|009}}<br />
**{{e|011}}<br />
**{{e|013}}<br />
**{{e|014}}<br />
**{{e|015}}<br />
**{{e|016}}<br />
**{{e|017}}<br />
**{{e|018}}<br />
**{{e|019}}<br />
**{{e|020}}<br />
**{{e|022}}<br />
**{{e|023}}<br />
**{{e|025}}<br />
**{{e|026}}<br />
**{{e|027}}<br />
**{{e|028}}<br />
**{{e|029}}<br />
**{{e|030}}<br />
**{{e|031}} (???)<br />
**{{e|033}} (flashback)<br />
**{{e|034}}<br />
**{{e|035}}<br />
**{{e|036}}<br />
**{{e|037}}<br />
**{{e|038}}<br />
**{{e|041}}<br />
**{{e|042}}<br />
**{{e|044}}<br />
**{{e|045}}<br />
**{{e|046}}<br />
**{{e|047}}<br />
**{{e|048}}<br />
**{{e|049}}<br />
**{{e|050}}<br />
**{{e|051}}<br />
**{{e|052}}<br />
**{{e|053}}<br />
**{{e|054}}<br />
**{{e|108}}<br />
**{{e|109}}<br />
**{{e|110}} (death)<br />
*{{gw}}<br />
*{{onw}}<br />
*{{swv}}<br />
**{{e|Chapter I|SWV}}<br />
**{{e|Chapter II|SWV}}<br />
**{{e|Chapter III|SWV}}<br />
**{{e|Chapter IV|SWV}}<br />
*{{ret}}<br />
**{{e|Chapter I|RET}}<br />
**{{e|Chapter II|RET}}<br />
**{{e|Chapter III|RET}}<br />
**{{e|Chapter IV|RET}}<br />
</div><br />
<br />
===Memorable quotes===<br />
*In any age, in any society, when people are small, they look up at the stars and stretch out their hands as if to grasp them. Then at last,they learn that their own arms aren't long enough to reach the stars. They call that becoming an adult. But I don't think so. Without fail, those stars will be in this hand!<br />
<br />
*There is great satisfaction in fighting for the sake of gaining power, but it is joyless to fight for the sake of maintaining it. <br />
<br />
*These idiots. What do they think of others? They think they are born with the right to rule. They think they have the right to hurt others. These people are too evil. And this empire is too corrupted.<br />
<br />
*I want victory — but not because the enemy is weak.<br />
<br />
*It's power. What I need is power. If I should want to get my sister back, then I must first, first of all, possess power that would make those idiots bow to my command. If my enemies are to be the aristocracy, then I need a power greater than theirs. If the emperor is to be my enemy, I must be mightier than even him.<br />
<br />
*For those who have come to power, wealth and glory not by their own strength and effort, but simply through inheritance, what right do they have to complain? The very existence of such blood-lineage dynasties is disgusting. Power is the property of one generation. It shouldn't be transferred, it should be seized.<br />
<br />
*The man who succeeds me must have talent equal to, or greater than my own.<br />
<br />
*Genes determine everything? What nonsense. Hereditary physical qualities have no effect on people, that's for individuals. Heredity concerns family background, not personal abilities. Those who blindly believe in such theories generally having nothing in their own lives to be proud of... they are the people I despise the most.<br />
<br />
*Indeed, small acts of opposition cannot solve every problem. Our society needs a complete revolution. Such problems must be corrected, and we must not wait for others to correct them. We must carry out the revolution with our own hands.<br />
<br />
*If the enemy has anyone with even a tenth of my intelligence, even Iserlohn will fall.<br />
<br />
*Our future battles will not only be on the battlefield. Political struggles, court politics. It's not just a war of words, but also a war of blood.<br />
<br />
*It's to be expected that incompetent rulers be overthrown.<br />
<br />
*Fighting 100 battles does not mean winning 100 victories.<br />
<br />
*Already, I have nothing to lose. But even so, I will fight. To keep my promise to you, and... to gain something to quench the thirst in my heart.<br />
<br />
*What criminals need is neither diplomacy nor persuasion. They have neither the ability nor the intention to understand. Only force will enlighten their foolishness.<br />
<br />
*I aim to be the supreme ruler... and to reach that goal, I have a policy of my own. It is to fight my own battles. That's the difference between myself and the noblemen I've fought and defeated. That's also the reason why the soldiers follow me.<br />
<br />
*I cannot lose to anyone. People admire and stay loyal to me because I'm undefeated. I'm not supported because of my bloodline.<br />
<br />
*Something that is supposed to die and does not... will eventually rot away, whether it's a man or a nation.<br />
<br />
*I don't believe that absolute truth is necessary. I only need the power to freely accomplish my dreams. One could say that it's the power not to have to take orders from those one despises.<br />
<br />
*I formally acknowledge that terrorists have abducted his majesty, the Kaiser Erwin Josef. The whereabouts of his majesty, as well as of the lawless criminals who abducted him have both become clear. This band of criminals are former high nobles led by a former Imperial High Commissioner to Fezzan, Jochen von Remscheid, a Count under the old system. These villains, hiding among the rebels who call themselves the Free Planets Alliance, have illegally announced the establishment of a government-in-exile. I hereby declare: having abducted the Kaiser by illegal and cowardly means, the remnants of the high nobility who plan to reverse the flow of history and steal by force the rights that the people have established will receive a suitable repayment for this atrocity. The ambitious men of the Free Planets Alliance who had illicit dealings with them, and who also plot a rebellious war against the peace and harmony of space, will meet the same fate. Their mistaken choice must be met with an appropriate punishment. What criminals need is neither diplomacy nor persuasion, they have neither the ability nor the intention to understand either. Only force will enlighten their foolishness. Hereafter, no matter how great the volume of blood that comes to be shed, bear in mind these foolish criminals and conspirators and know that they are responsible.<br />
<br />
*But even if my sister hates me, I can't turn back. If I retreat now from the road to leadership, who will restore the universe to unity and harmony? Shall I entrust the future of humanity to the high noble prodigals who care only about their own lineage? Or to demagogues who just move armies guided by sophistry and profit?<br />
<br />
*What do they think people are? Assuming it's a matter of course to rule over them. Stealing from people and insulting people... yet they say it's their privilege to be forgiven?! Those people are corrupt! This empire is corrupt!<br />
<br />
*I don't think I can forgive Rudolf and what he did, becoming Kaiser. He set up the people who flattered him as nobles, and the result of that is this disgrace. Haven't you had thoughts like this, Kircheis? The Goldenbaum dynasty, as with the birth of the human race, need not have happened. It's only been 500 years since Rudolf built it. Before that, neither the Empire nor the Goldenbaum family existed, and he was no more than one citizen. Originally, Rudolf was no more than an upstart man of ambition, and who, riding the current of the times, was made into a sacred, inviolable Kaiser.<br />
<br />
*Kircheis, do you think what was possible for Rudolf is impossible for me?<br />
<br />
===Background information===<br />
*The name [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard Reinhard] is of old Nordic origin and means ''pure and sturdy''. In German, it roughly translates into ''determined''. Both attributes denoting to Reinhard's character as well as his ulterior motives and goals. Lohengramm is quite likely a mistranslation/misspelling of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohengrin Lohengrin], the opera of Richard Wagner about the grail-knight of the same name.<br />
<br />
* Reinhard strongly resembles Napoleon Bonaparte. Both men started off as minor nobility. Both gained power and prominence through military accomplishment. Both became emperors and established an enlightened monarchy and Reinhard's combination of High Admirals and Fleet Admirals mirror's Napoleon's Marshals. One of Napoleon's most notable marshals, Jean Lannes, strongly resembles Siegfried Kircheis in both relationship and deeds.<br />
<br />
*Many of Reinhard's achievements and characteristics mirror those of Alexander the Great. Both men were military geniuses who ascended to power at a very young age. Both men conquered most of their respective known universes. Both men were responsible for sweeping social and political reforms that would impact all of human history to follow, and both men died at a young age shortly after their wars had ended. Reinhard's very close friendship with also Siegfried Kircheis parallels Alexander's relationship with his friend and general, Hephaestion.<br />
<br />
*Reinhard's life is also similar to that of Julius Caesar. Like Caesar, Reinhard's power stemmed not just from the military, but from the common people. Like Caesar, Reinhard was very popular with the lowest-classes of citizenry and feared by the ruling nobility. Like Caesar, Reinhard seized power through ostensibly legitimate means and stripped the ruling elite of their power, money, and influence. The scene of fleets loyal to Reinhard descending over Odin — of warships appearing over sacrosanct skies — also mirrors that of the 13th Legion crossing the Rubicon into Rome.<br />
<br />
*Reinhard also bears many similarities to Rome's first Emperor, Augustus. Like Augustus, Reinhard enacted many reforms that completely changed the social, political, legal and educational landscape of the Empire, and like Augustus, Reinhard focused on crafting a system of Empire that could survive in spite of, or despite, whomever might become Emperor after his death.<br />
<br />
*Reinhard is also somewhat similar to the French royalist leader [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Cathelineau Jacques Cathelineau], in terms of both physical appearance and traits. <br />
<br />
*Though its exact symptoms were never explicitly stated, the disease that ended Reinhard's life bore the name "Emperor's Sickness," a term that has been used commonly to refer to Hemophilia and Porphyria, as illnesses infamous for afflicting regal heads-of-state.<br />
<br />
*Reinhard's voice actor, [[Horikawa Ryō]], is also notable for his other big anime role: Vegeta, in the mega-hit anime Dragonball Z, its sequel Dragonball GT, and the many affiliated OVAs and movies.<br />
<br />
{{navbox/officials/Goldenlöwe}}<br />
{{navbox/officials/Goldenbaum|collapsed}}<br />
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[[Category:Soldiers|Lohengramm reinhard von]]<br />
[[Category:Imperial citizens|Lohengramm reinhard von]]<br />
[[Category:Nobility|Lohengramm reinhard von]]<br />
[[Category:Characters from Overture to a New War|Lohengramm reinhard von]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/User:KaiserprimeUser:Kaiserprime2021-06-24T23:46:23Z<p>Iracundus: Created page with "==Galactic Empire edits== Hello, there seems to be a disagreement over the Empire vs. New Empire. Please let's discuss here rather than have edit wars. ~~~~"</p>
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<div>==Galactic Empire edits==<br />
Hello, there seems to be a disagreement over the Empire vs. New Empire. Please let's discuss here rather than have edit wars. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 23:46, 24 June 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/EmperorEmperor2021-06-24T23:40:04Z<p>Iracundus: Reverted edits by Kaiserprime (talk) to last revision by Canary</p>
<hr />
<div>The Emperor was the sovereign ruler of the [[Galactic Empire]] and, later, [[New Galactic Empire]].<br />
<br />
The emperor's full set of titles as of {{d|796|uc}} were:<br />
*Ruler of all humanity.<br />
*Sovereign of all the universe.<br />
*Defender of the order and laws that govern the heavenly realm.<br />
*Kaiser of the sacred and inviolable Galactic Empire.<br />
<br />
The Galactic Empire's emperors were descendants of the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]], whereas the New Galactic Empire's emperors were potentially descendants of the [[Goldenlöwe Dynasty]]. ([[Legend of Galactic Heroes Volume 1: Dawn]])<br />
<br />
==Succession==<br />
In the Galactic Empire, Ruduolf intended that his throne be passed down patrilinealy through the eldest male offspring. By the end of the dynasty, however, an absence of heirs led to the selection of an [[Katharin Kätchen|infant girl]] as the Goldenbaum's final emperor.<br />
<br />
In the New Galactic Empire, emperor [[Reinhard von Lohengram]] was succeeded by his wife, [[Hildegarde von Lohengramm]], who became Empress, but it is unknown how the line of succession was formalized thereafter. Reinhard, however, was an ardent believer in meritocracy, and decreed that if his [[Alexander von Lohengramm|son]] were not capable, he should not inherit the throne.<br />
<br />
[[Category:Culture]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Katharin_K%C3%A4tchenKatharin Kätchen2021-06-24T23:38:39Z<p>Iracundus: Undo revision 36352 by Kaiserprime (talk)</p>
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<div>{{infobox/character<br />
| image-top = Katharin_Kaetchen.jpg<br />
| caption-top = Kaiserin '''Katharin Kätchen''' ({{d|798|uc}})<br />
| gender = Female<br />
| affiliation = [[Galactic Empire]]<br />
| occupation = Kaiserin of the Galactic Empire (former)<br />
| status = Alive ({{d|799|uc}})<br />
| born = {{d|798|uc}}<br />
}}<br />
'''Katharin Kätchen''' (Japanese: '''カザリン・ケートヘン1世''') was the 38th and final monarch of the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]], and the [[Galactic Empire]]'s first [[Kaiserin]]. As a great-granddaughter of [[Otfried V]] through his 3rd daughter, she was given the position by Prime Minister [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] following the abduction of the 37th Kaiser, the seven-year-old Kaiser [[Erwin Josef II]], on 20 September {{d|798|uc}}.<br />
<br />
At the time of her ascension to the throne, Katharin Kätchen was only 8 months old. She was to hold the crown for the final days of the first [[Alliance–Imperial War]], which saw Reinhard claiming a decisive victory over the Alliance, and the signing of the [[Treaty of Ba‘alat]] in his favour. Only a month after on 20 June {{d|799|uc}}, her regent, Duke [[Jürgen Offer von Pegnitz]], signed the abdication on her behalf, and was succeeded by Reinhard, putting an end to nearly five centuries of Goldenbaum rule in the Galactic Empire. ({{logh|054}})<br />
<br />
==Appendices==<br />
===Appearances===<br />
<div class="appear"><br />
*{{logh}}<br />
**{{e|041}} (only appearance)<br />
</div><br />
<br />
===Name variations===<br />
*'''Catherine von Goldenbaum'''<br />
<br />
===Licensed sources===<br />
Her regent was also her father. Upon her taking on the position of Kaiserin, her father was elevated three ranks from viscount to duke. The 30 year old duke had no interest in politics or the military and indulged his passion and fortune in amassing ivory works of art. The documents of abdication he signed also guaranteed the Pegnitz family's new noble rank and also granted Katharin a lifelong annuity of 1.5 million Imperial Marks. ([[Legend of Galactic Heroes Volume 4: The Plot]], ''[[Legend of Galactic Heroes Encyclopaedia]]'', p. 50)<br />
<br />
{{navbox/monarchs/Goldenbaum}}<br />
{{navbox/officials/Goldenbaum|collapsed}}<br />
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[[Category:Imperial citizens|Katharinkätchen]]<br />
[[Category:Nobility|Katharinkätchen]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/New_Galactic_EmpireNew Galactic Empire2021-06-24T23:38:18Z<p>Iracundus: Undo revision 36345 by Kaiserprime (talk)</p>
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<div>[[File:Goldenloewe flag.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Flag of the New Galactic Empire]]<br />
The '''New Galactic Empire''' was founded by [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] in {{d|799|uc}}, following the conquest of the [[Free Planets Alliance]] at the end of the first [[Alliance–Imperial War]]. The capital of the New Galactic Empire, or Neue Reich, is the [[New Imperial Capital]], located on the planet [[Fezzan]]. Its flag was a golden winged lion rampant on a crimson red background. The crest as depicted on warships was a winged lion leaping towards the viewer. <br />
<br />
==History==<br />
===Foundation===<br />
After defeating the [[High Nobles]] in the [[Imperial Civil War]] and deposing Imperial Minister of State [[Klaus von Lichtenlade]], [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] was the sole political and military authority in the [[Galactic Empire]]. Reinhard immediately began reorganizing the social and political structure of the empire: he abolished the caste system and redistributed the property and assets of the nobles; he instituted many progressive legal and social welfare reforms; and he eliminated corruption and graft within the Imperial government. ({{logh|027}})<br />
<br />
When former High Nobles abducted the young figurehead of the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty|old Imperial line]], Kaiser [[Erwin Josef II]] to the [[Free Planets Alliance]] to establish a [[Galactic Empire Legitimate Government|government-in-exile]] in {{d|797|uc}}, Reinhard, with overwhelming popular support, declared his intention to [[Operation Ragnarok|invade the Free Planets Alliance]] and to eliminate the vile High Nobles once and for all. ({{logh|037}})<br />
<br />
Reinhard seized control of the [[Dominion of Fezzan]], making the formerly autonomous (and neutral) territory the forward-base for his invasion of the Free Planets Alliance. Overconfident in the defensive abilities of [[Iserlohn Fortress]], the Alliance was unprepared for Reinhard's invasion. The Alliance hastily mustered its fleets and placed them under the command of veteran admiral [[Alexandre Bewcock]], who attacked the Imperial invasion forces in the [[Rantemario Starzone]]. The [[Battle of Rantemario]], despite the timely intervention of the [[Yang Fleet]], saw the near-obliteration and utter defeat of the Alliance forces. ({{logh|048}})<br />
<br />
In a last-ditch effort to fend off the invaders, [[Yang Wen-li]] attacked Reinhard's personal fleet when it was isolated from the other invading fleets in the [[Vermilion Starzone]], hoping to destroy the [[Brunhild]] and kill Reinhard, thus throwing the Imperial forces into confusion and disarray. Despite managing to claim a tactical victory in the [[Battle of Vermilion]], Yang was forced to surrender to Reinhard after two Imperial fleets led by admirals [[Ruenthal]] and [[Mittermeyer]] conquered the capital planet of [[Heinessen]], forcing the Alliance [[Supreme Council]] to surrender unconditionally. ({{logh|051|052|053}})<br />
<br />
Reinhard von Lohengramm generously allowed the Free Planets Alliance to retain their sovereignty and the right to self-rule when the [[Alliance–Imperial War]] was formally brought to a close with the [[Treaty of Ba‘alat]]. Returning to [[Odin]] with the whole universe conquered by his own hand, [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] forced [[Catherine I]] to abdicate her throne, and declared himself emperor of the New Galactic Empire on the twentieth day of June {{d|799|uc}}. A new calendar, the [[New Imperial Calendar]] was started to mark the creation of the new pan-galactic state. ({{logh|054}})<br />
<br />
[[File:Lohengramm crest on Koenigs Tiger.jpg|thumb|left|190px|The Lohengramm crest]]<br />
<br />
===Second Alliance–Imperial War===<br />
{{main|Second Alliance–Imperial War}}<br />
Rather than forcefully absorb the [[Free Planets Alliance]] into his new empire, Kaiser [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] allowed the Alliance government to maintain a high level of autonomy, with duly-elected Supreme Chairman [[João Rebelo]] governing over the Alliance territories under the limited supervision of Imperial Admiral [[Helmut Lennenkampf]], who acted in the role of "Imperial High Commissioner" on [[Heinessen]]. Rebelo would be forced to limit the freedoms of the Alliance citizens in order to avoid conflict with the Empire, and the Alliance economy would inevitably falter due to the sudden lack of wartime conditions. By allowing Rebelo to lead the Alliance, Reinhard constructed the circumstances in such a way that public opinion would inevitably turn against Rebelo, culminating with the people of the Alliance resenting their own government. The Neue Reich, by comparison, would seem benign, hastening the absorption of the Alliance into the Empire.<br />
<br />
The increasing stress of office coupled with the anger of the people quickly proved too much for João Rebelo to bear, and his mental state became increasingly unstable as his time in office wore on: Rebelo forced himself to make hard, morally ambiguous decisions, believing that he had to do whatever necessary in order to preserve the autonomy of the Alliance. In late July {{d|799}}, following admiral [[Willibald Joachim von Merkatz]]'s raid on the Alliance warships that had been marked for decommissioning in accordance with the [[Treaty of Ba‘alat]], Rebelo ordered the arrest and, soon after, the execution of Alliance war hero [[Yang Wen-li]]. His plan to turn Yang into a martyr for the Alliance and shift the blame to his former subordinates so as to preserve the semblance of Alliance independence failed however when the [[Rosen Ritter]] proved to be too strong for the remaining Alliance troops in [[Heinessenpolis]] to handle. The Rosen Ritter managed to rescue not only Yang, but also kidnapped Rebelo and Lennenkampf so as to secure a passage of freedom for Yang. When news of the crisis in Heinessen reached Reinhard, he saw it as a perfect opportunity to subjugate the Alliance once and for all and initiated the Second Alliance–Imperial War. ({{logh|060|061|062|067}})<br />
<br />
===Reuenthal's Revolt===<br />
{{main|Reuenthal's Revolt}}<br />
...<br />
<br />
===The Iserlohn Republic===<br />
<br />
The New Galactic Empire did not formally recognise the formation of the [[Iserlohn Republic]] in {{d|800|uc}}. With the shifting of the Imperial capital to [[Fezzan]], Iserlohn fortress lost its strategic importance. Reinhard's primary motivation for re-taking the fortress had been to fight against Yang Wen-li again. With Yang and the fortress's strategic importance both gone, the New Galactic Empire ignored the Republic. <br />
<br />
When [[Oskar von Reuenthal]] revolted, precipitating another civil war in the Empire, Reuenthal made an offer to the Republic. He offered restoration of the Alliance's former territory if the Republic would side with him and bar the passage of Imperial reinforcements through the Iserlohn Corridor. After consideration, [[Julian Mintz]] declined the offer and allowed the Mecklinger Fleet of 11,900 ships to pass. ({{logh|101}})<br />
<br />
Eventually in {{d|801|uc}}, the Republic decided to challenge the Empire militarily in order to demonstrate to former Alliance citizens that they were still dedicated to the ideals of republican democracy and to demonstrate to Reinhard that they had the strength to be worthy of negotiations with him. The resulting [[Eleventh Battle of Iserlohn]] was a victory for the Republic. As predicted, the defeat spurred Reinhard into action, eventually culminating in the [[Battle of Shiva]]. This final battle resulted in Reinhard agreeing to an armistice and equitable peace negotiations. ({{logh|102|108}})<br />
<br />
Ultimately, in return for the return of Iserlohn fortress and the dissolving of the Iserlohn Republic, the New Galactic Empire agreed to the Ba'alat star system, including the planet Heinessen, becoming an internally self-governing autonomous zone, and the possibility of constitutional reforms and greater representative rule in the Empire as a whole. ({{logh|109|110}})<br />
<br />
===Death of the Emperor===<br />
All that is known of the Kaiser after his death is that a massive state funeral was to be held around a week after his death.<br />
<br />
It is, however, a safe assumption that as founder of a new dynasty, Kaiser Reinhard would have had a post death status equalling, if not surpassing, that of Kaiser Rudolph. His death would also have likely caused some doubt to fester about the Kaiserin's ability to rule over an empire that so rapidly restructured and expanded. This could have been negated by Oberstein's seemingly flawless contingencies that would have certainly been put in place before his death. The loyalty and respect Kaiser Reinhard had from the admirals and ministers would also serve foreseeably as deterrents to any other attempts to seize the throne.<br />
<br />
===Possible transition to Constitutional Monarchy===<br />
It is unknown what the constitution of the New Galactic Empire contained, or more importantly, if there was one. Kaiser Reinhard's last words to the Kaiserin gave her express permission to allow a constitution and parliament if she deemed it the best course of action. Kaiser Reinhard's own feelings were revealed during his conversations with [[Julian Mintz]], in which the Kaiser expressed his distrust in constitutionalism due to the possibility that it would lead to a completely democratic society, which in his opinion led to mediocrity and the stifling of the talented and driven individual. However, he would no doubt have been simultaneously aware of the possibility of his dynasty repeating the same path of stagnation and decay as the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]]. Kaiserin Hildegard was known to be very adept at governmental administration, however it is difficult to judge whether or not she would have led the Empire to some form of limited constitution.<br />
<br />
==Culture==<br />
===Society===<br />
<br />
===Law===<br />
As early as in the months immediately after the Imperial Civil War, before the Goldenbaum Dynasty was officially removed, then-Imperial Prime Minister Reinhard von Lohengramm began reforms liberalizing Imperial law. Legal privileges for the nobility were abolished, freedom of speech and of the press was protected, a new tax code was implemented, and the traditional feudal caste system that prevailed under the ''ancien regime'' was done away with, among other reforms. The former [[Department of Social Discipline]], the Goldenbaum Dynasty's secret police, was also abolished. ({{logh|027|041}})<br />
<br />
Nonetheless, politically the Empire remained an authoritarian monarchy, with the [[Internal Security Department]] being created as the new secret police, led by the former head of the Social Discipline Office [[Heydrich Lang]]. ({{logh|041}})<br />
<br />
The Ministry of Justice was presumably the main legal authority, with [[Bruckdorf]] serving as the New Empire's Minister of Justice from {{d|799|uc}}. ({{logh|057}})<br />
<br />
===Legacy===<br />
<br />
==Appendices==<br />
===Background information===<br />
*The New Galactic Empire was a legal evolution of the old [[Galactic Empire]], which was also a legal evolution of the [[Galactic Federation]].<br />
*The [[Imperial Senate]]/[[Galactic Parliament]] was reformed as an integral part of the New Imperial government, and it may have become the primary ruling body of the New Empire if it were to transition to a constitutional monarchy.<br />
<br />
==Appendices==<br />
===Background information===<br />
*"Neue Reich" translates to "New Empire," or "New Realm."<br />
<br />
[[Category:Galactic Empire]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Operation_Ragnar%C3%B6kOperation Ragnarök2021-06-24T23:36:49Z<p>Iracundus: Undo revision 36355 by Kaiserprime (talk)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{infobox/battle<br />
| battle = Operation Ragnarök<br />
| campaign =<br />
| war = [[Alliance–Imperial War]]<br />
| image-top = Corridors(DVD-CA).jpg<br />
| caption-top = '''The planned attack through the [[Fezzan]] and [[Iserlohn Corridor]]s ({{d|798|uc}})'''<br />
| date = 20 November {{d|798|uc}} — 25 May {{d|799|uc}}<br />
| location = Primarily [[Sagittarius Arm]], also Iserlohn and Fezzan Corridors <br />
| result = Decisive Imperial victory<br />
* [[Treaty of Ba'alat]] subordinated the [[Free Planets Alliance]] to the [[Galactic Empire]]<br />
* [[Dominion of Fezzan]] lost autonomy<br />
| belligerents1 = [[Galactic Empire]]<br />
| belligerents2 = [[Free Planets Alliance]]<br />[[Galactic Empire Legitimate Government]]<br />[[Dominion of Fezzan]]<br />
| units1 = <br />
| units2 = <br />
| commanders1 = [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]]<br />[[Wolfgang Mittermeyer]]<br />[[Oskar von Reuenthal]]<br />
| commanders2 = [[Alexandor Bucock]]<br />[[Yang Wen-li]]<br />[[Chung Wu-Cheng]]<br />[[Willibald Joachim von Merkatz]]<br />
| strength1 = 190,600 ships<br />
| strength2 = 49,320 ships<br />
| losses1 = Moderate<br />
| losses2 = Moderate<br />
}}<br />
'''Operation Ragnarök''' (Japanese: '''神々の黄昏作戦''') was the codename for the invasion of the [[Free Planets Alliance]] in {{d|798|uc}}—{{d|799|uc}} by the [[Galactic Empire]], a plan conceived and overseen by Duke [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]], relying on the usage of the [[Fezzan Corridor]] to invade and bypassing the formidable [[Iserlohn Fortress]]. It was the final major operation of the [[Alliance–Imperial War]], resulting in the capture of the Alliance capital of [[Heinessen]] and the signing of the unequal [[Treaty of Ba'alat]], which ended the 150-year long conflict. The most notable aspect of the operation was the Empire's usage of [[Dominion of Fezzan|Fezzan]]i space to invade despite the region being a neutral zone, which the Alliance government did not expect.<br />
<br />
== Opposing forces ==<br />
=== Imperial order of battle ===<br />
In its entirety, the Empire mobilized a total of 190,600 ships for the operation. Out of those, 112,700 combat ships and 41,900 support ships, along with 16,600,000 soldiers, made up the expeditionary force that attacked through Fezzan, while the remaining 36,000 ships besieged [[Iserlohn Fortress]].<br />
==== Fezzan front ====<br />
* The HQ Fleet, commanded by the Imperial Supreme Commander, {{rank|imperial|Fleet Admiral}} [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]], flagship ''[[Brünhild]]''<br />
* The [[Mittermeyer Fleet]], commanded by {{rank|imperial|High Admiral}} [[Wolfgang Mittermeyer]], flagship ''[[Beowulf]]''<br />
* The [[Black Lancers]], commanded by {{rank|imperial|Admiral}} [[Fritz Josef Bittenfeld]], flagship ''[[Königs Tiger]]''<br />
* The [[Wahlen Fleet]], commanded by {{rank|imperial|Admiral}} [[August Samuel Wahlen]], flagship ''[[Salamander]]''<br />
* The [[Fahrenheit Fleet]], commanded by {{rank|imperial|Admiral}} [[Adalbert von Fahrenheit]], flagship ''[[Asgrimm]]''<br />
* The [[Steinmetz Fleet]], commanded by {{rank|imperial|Admiral}} [[Karl Robert Steinmetz]], flagship ''[[Vonkel]]''<br />
* The [[Müller Fleet]], commanded by {{rank|imperial|Admiral}} [[Neidhart Müller]], flagship ''[[Lübeck]]''<br />
==== Iserlohn front ====<br />
* The [[Reuenthal Fleet]], commanded by {{rank|imperial|high admiral}} [[Oskar von Reuenthal]], flagship ''[[Tristan]]''<br />
* The [[Lutz Fleet]], commanded by {{rank|imperial|admiral}} [[Cornelius Lutz]], flagship ''[[Skirnir]]''<br />
* The [[Lennenkampf Fleet]], commanded by {{rank|imperial|admiral}} [[Helmut Lennenkampf]], flagship ''[[Garga Falmul]]''<br />
=== Alliance order of battle ===<br />
The Alliance fielded its whole fleet, a total force of 49,320 ships and 7,113,600 troops. Of those, 32,900 vessels and 5,206,000 soldiers were part of the force that fought at Rantemario, under Space Fleet Commander Bewcock, while the remaining 16,420 ships and 1,907,600 soldiers were part of the former [[Yang Fleet|Iserlohn Garrison Fleet]].<br />
* The HQ Fleet, commanded by the Space Fleet Commander, {{rank|fpa|fleet admiral}} [[Alexandre Bewcock]], flagship ''[[Rio Grande]]''<br />
* The [[1st Fleet]], commanded by {{rank|fpa|vice admiral}} [[Paetta]], flagship ''[[Patoroklos]]''<br />
* The [[14th Fleet]], commanded by {{rank|fpa|vice admiral}} [[Lionel Morton]], flagship ''[[Achilleus]]''<br />
* The [[15th Fleet]], commanded by {{rank|fpa|vice admiral}} [[Ralph Carlsen]], flagship ''[[Diomedes]]''<br />
* The [[Yang Fleet]], commanded by {{rank|fpa|fleet admiral}} [[Yang Wen-li]], flagship ''[[Hyperion]]''<br />
<br />
==Background==<br />
After having secured his own position during the [[Imperial Civil War]] of {{d|797|uc}}, Duke Reinhard von Lohengramm decided to turn his attention to the Free Planets Alliance. He cooperated with a [[Fezzan]]i-conceived scheme to kidnap the child Kaiser [[Erwin Josef II]] and smuggle him to the Alliance, where some exiled nobles loyal to the old [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]] formed a "[[Galactic Empire Legitimate Government]]" with the intent of overthrowing Lohengramm. Many Imperial citizens thought he should focus on internal reforms now that the old nobility had just been defeated, but Reinhard wanted to unite all of humanity under his rule, and the formation of the exiled government of aristocrats and Goldenbaum royalists changed public opinion to allow him to accomplish this. The people of the Empire were infuriated with the Alliance for allowing the former nobles to create a government-in-exile, which gave Lohengramm a ''casus belli'' to invade the Alliance. The Fezzani Landesherr [[Adrian Rubinsky]] and his secretary [[Rupert Kesserling]] came up with the plan because they wanted to force the two states to bleed each other out in war so that Fezzan could rule them both economically, but Reinhard understood this and manipulated the Fezzanis for his own purposes. ({{logh|023|027|036}})<br />
<br />
A [[Eighth Battle of Iserlohn|previous Imperial attempt]] to retake [[Iserlohn Fortress]], shortly after the conclusion of the Empire's civil war, had ended in failure, which caused Alliance politicians to believe in the fortress's impregnability and that Admiral Yang Wen-li would stop the Empire again. Besides Iserlohn and the Yang Fleet garrisoned at the fortress the Alliance had practically no defenses because the disastrous [[invasion of the Imperial Territory|invasion of the Empire]] in {{D|796|uc}} and the subsequent [[Alliance Civil War]] devastated the [[Free Planets Star Fleet|Alliance armed forces]]. However, unbeknownst to both the Fezzani autonomous government and the Alliance leadership, Lohengramm did not intended to launch an invasion through the [[Iserlohn Corridor]] this time. The Alliance expected him to do just that, and although Yang suspected Lohengramm would use the Fezzan Corridor instead, the Alliance government refused to believe it. Although there was an old contingency plan for a defence in depth of the Alliance exit side of the Fezzan Corridor if the Empire invaded through Fezzan, it was no longer implementable as the Alliance Fleet had been too severely weakened by its failed invasion of the Empire and the civil war. ({{logh|019|022|041|42}})<br />
<br />
Lohengramm conspired with the Fezzani ambassador on Odin, [[Nikolas Boltik]], to gain passage for his expeditionary force through the Fezzan Corridor for the Empire to invade the Alliance. In return, Boltik would be named the planet's interim governor-general after the Imperial annexation of Fezzan and the planned arrest of Adrian Rubinsky. While a fleet under High Admiral Oskar von Reuenthal besieged Iserlohn as a diversionary measure for the Alliance government, the bulk of the expeditionary force would enter the Fezzan Corridor. ({{logh|041|042}})<br />
<br />
==The invasion==<br />
===First phase===<br />
In November and December of {{d|798|uc}}, a fleet of 36,000 ships under High Admiral Reuenthal, along with Admirals Cornelius Lutz and Helmut Lennenkampf, entered the Iserlohn Corridor and attacked the Fortress as a diversion. The attack on Iserlohn was publicly announced, while the subsequent invasion through the Fezzan Corridor was not, in order to take the Alliance government and the Fezzani leadership by surprise. An attempt to enter Iserlohn as the Alliance fleet exited it to attack the Imperials was beaten back, at which point Reuenthal mainly carried out nuisance attacks. Admiral Yang, who deduced Lohengramm's plan to invade through Fezzan, made plans to evacuate, and the [[Reuenthal Fleet]] tried to hassle the evacuation preparations with its attacks. ({{logh|043|046}})<br />
<br />
In early December, while the fighting at Iserlohn was raging on, the much larger Imperial force was launched from Odin to the Fezzan area. ({{logh|043}})<br />
===Second phase===<br />
Later that month, an Imperial fleet under High Admiral Wolfgang Mittermeyer entered the Fezzan Corridor and landed troops on the planet. The Fezzani Landesherr, [[Adrian Rubinsky]], managed to escape to an unknown location before Imperial troops reached his residence, going into hiding. Along with the Landesherr's offices and residence, many other key locations were quickly taken over, including the [[Fezzan Space Navigation Bureau]], which contained maps of Alliance territory. The occupation was largely bloodless, but there was an incident of some Imperial soldiers robbing and murdering a civilian woman, for which Mittermeyer had them publicly executed by firing squad. ({{logh|044}})<br />
<br />
The Alliance High Commissioner on Fezzan, [[Henslow]], managed to escape with the assistance of a couple of Alliance officers. They were later smuggled back to the Alliance by an independent merchant, as the Empire had officially banned travel into Alliance space. However, the Alliance military attache, {{rank|fpa|captain}} [[Viola]], along with some others, was captured and arrested by the Empire. ({{logh|047}})<br />
<br />
After Duke Lohengramm's main fleet and the rest of the expeditionary force arrive on Fezzan, the Imperial military command celebrated New Year's there before beginning the invasion of Alliance territory. The first fleet, under High Admiral Mittermeyer, crossed into Alliance space on 8 January. ({{logh|045}})<br />
<br />
Meanwhile, Yang and his fleet abandoned Iserlohn on 9 January {{d|799|uc}}, allowing Reuenthal to enter the fortress and reclaim it for the Empire after nearly two years of it being under Alliance control. ({{logh|046}})<br />
<br />
==Aftermath==<br />
A panic erupted in the Alliance after news of the Imperial occupation of Fezzan reached it, despite the Alliance government's attempts to censor it. Admiral [[Alexandor Bewcock]] was appointed to command the defence of the Alliance territory, with the only intact fleet being the [[1st Fleet]], with the rest having been destroyed during the disturbances of the last few years. The only exception was the Yang Fleet, but it was on its way from Iserlohn. Additionally, two new fleets were thrown together and placed under Bewcock's command, including untested new ships and local system defence squadrons. They were nonetheless outnumbered 3:1 by the Empire, and were defeated by the Imperial forces at the [[Battle of Rantemario]]. Only the timely arrival of the Yang Fleet saved Bewcock's force from complete annihilation. ({{logh|045|048}})<br />
<br />
Lohengramm's admirals became bogged down by a guerrilla war that Admiral Yang waged, who destroyed part of the Imperial supply fleet. It was an attempt to draw out Lohengramm himself to the battlefield and kill him. Duke Lohengramm eventually responded to him and fought in the [[Battle of Vermilion]], where he was nearly defeated, though High Admirals Reuenthal and Mittermeyer captured [[Heinessen]] and forced the Alliance government to unconditionally surrender. Yang chose to obey the government's order to stop fighting, sparing Lohengramm. ({{logh|049|051|053}})<br />
<br />
Operation Ragnarök was a major success and was the final operation of the [[Alliance–Imperial War]], ending the conflict and resulting in the signing of the [[Treaty of Ba'alat]], in May {{d|799|uc}}. Following the war, the Alliance became a client state of the Galactic Empire, and would be fully annexed after a brief [[Second Alliance–Imperial War|second conflict]] a year later (which was dubbed by some as a second Ragnarök). ({{logh|055|066|067}})<br />
<br />
[[Category:Galactic Empire]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Imperial_Civil_WarImperial Civil War2021-06-24T23:34:46Z<p>Iracundus: Undo revision 36358 by Kaiserprime (talk)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{infobox/battle<br />
| battle = Imperial Civil War<br />
| campaign = <br />
| war = <br />
| image-top = Geiersburgbattle.png<br />
| caption-top = [[Imperial battleship (Modern era)|Battleship]]s repulsing an enemy charge outside of [[Geiersburg Fortress]]<br />
| date = April — September {{d|797|uc}}<br />
| location = [[Galactic Empire]]<br />
| result = Imperial Government victory<br />
*[[Nobility|High nobility]] loses authority<br />
*Major internal reforms begin<br />
| belligerents1 = Imperial Government<br />
| belligerents2 = [[Lippstadt League]]<br />
| units1 = <br />
| units2 =<br />
| commanders1 = [[Erwin Josef II]]<br />[[Klaus von Lichtenlade]]<br />[[Reinhard von Lohengramm]]<br />[[Siegfried Kircheis]]{{kia}}<br />
| commanders2 = [[Otho von Braunschweig]]{{kia}}<br />[[Wilhelm von Littenheim]]{{kia}}<br />[[Willibald Joachim von Merkatz]]<br />
| strength1 = Unknown<br />
| strength2 = 150,000 ships<br />25,600,000 men<br />
| losses1 = Moderate<br />
| losses2 = Heavy<br />
}}<br />
The '''Imperial Civil War''' (Japanese: '''銀河帝国内戦'''), also known as the '''Lippstadt War''' (Japanese: '''リップシュタット戦役'''), was a conflict fought in {{d|797|uc}} between the forces of the [[Lippstadt League]] (a coalition of powerful [[Nobility#High nobility|high noble]] families) and those commanded by Marquis [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]], who supported Kaiser [[Erwin Josef II]]. The Empire was left in a crisis when Emperor [[Friedrich IV]] died in the fall of {{d|797|uc}} without an appointed heir. This led to a power struggle between the two most powerful Imperial noble houses, led by Duke [[Otto von Braunschweig]] and Marquis [[Wilhelm von Littenheim]], who were positioning their children to be the new monarch, and the rising progressive forces led by the young admiral Reinhard von Lohengramm, who was joined by the late Kaiser Friedrich's prime minister [[Klaus von Lichtenlade]]. The conflict was seen as between the traditional forces supporting the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]]'s old regime, led by the former group, and discontented elements seeking reforms to the Empire and to overthrow the current dynasty, led by the latter group. After about six months of almost uninterrupted military victories by Fleet Admiral Lohengramm's forces, the noble coalition fell apart and both of its main leaders were killed. <br />
<br />
The war was the beginning of the end of the Goldenbaum Dynasty, after which Reinhard von Lohengramm took absolute power as the ''de facto'' dictator of the Empire.<br />
<br />
==Background==<br />
[[File:Erwin_Josef_II_crown.jpg|thumb|left|200px|The crowning of [[Erwin Josef II]], the 37th Galactic Emperor ({{d|796|uc}}).]]<br />
In {{d|796|uc}}, Kaiser [[Friedrich IV]] suffered a heart attack and died, having failed to assign a successor to his throne. The question of which of his three young grandchildren would ascend to the position led to a struggle amongst various parties who sought power within the Empire:<br />
<br />
*Count Reinhard von Lohengramm, who initially had sought to overthrow Friedrich purely as a matter of justice or revenge (Friedrich had taken Reinhard's sister [[Annerose]] as a concubine several years prior). His vision seemed later to have expanded, however, to include control over the entire Empire, and possibly all of Terran-controlled space. Lohengramm supported [[Erwin Josef II]], the 5-year-old son of Princess Christine and the late Prince Ludwig. ({{logh|001|008|016}})<br />
<br />
*Marquis [[Klaus von Lichtenlade]], who had served under Friedrich as his chief of staff and secretary of state. He too supported Erwin Josef, because the latter's lack of a strong parental influence would make the child easy to control.<br />
<br />
*Duke [[Otto von Braunschweig]], a high noble who had married the Kaiser's daughter Amarie. He supported his own child, 18-year-old [[Elisabeth]], for obvious reasons.<br />
<br />
*Marquis [[Wilhelm von Littenheim]], another noble, who had married the Kaiser's other daughter Christine. He too supported his own daughter, 16-year-old [[Sabine]].<br />
<br />
After consulting with his advisers, Lohengramm chose to ally with Lichtenlade, as Lichtenlade lacked any military forces of his own, and together they were able to effect the ascension of Erwin Josef to the throne that same year. Coinciding with this event, the then-Count Lohengramm was given the title of Marquis.<br />
<br />
Braunschweig, Littenheim, and other high nobles—outraged by Lohengramm's increased stature within the Empire, as well as their own reduction in power—forged an alliance of their own to fight the 'Lichtenlade-Lohengramm Axis'. The Lippstadt League was formally created at a gathering of nobles in the Lippstadt Forest on Duke Braunschweig's estates. Duke Braunschweig was the leader of the Lippstadt League with Marquis Littenheim as the 2nd in command.<br />
<br />
Most of the high nobility sided with the Lippstadt League, either through pressure from family ties, feudal obligations, or simple inertia and desire to maintain the old status quo. One notable exception was the Mariendorf family which sided with Reinhard. ({{logh|016|018}})<br />
<br />
==Open War==<br />
Braunschweig had initially planned to station forces at 9 bases between Odin and Geiersburg Fortress, thinking the Lohengramm forces would exhaust themselves assaulting each base in series and stretch their supply lines. Merkatz opposed this dispersion of forces arguing the bases could be isolated and cut off. He instead proposed that the Lippstadt forces wholly retreat to Geiersburg to consolidate power in an impenetrable fortress. Admiral [[Staden]] tried to one-up Merkatz with adding an additional plan of sending a sortie against Odin to capture and then "protect" the infant Kaiser. However when chosen to implement this plan, Staden was defeated. Staden retreated to [[Rentenberg Fortress]] where [[Ovlesser]] commanded a force of Imperial armoured infantry. The Lippstadt fleet was defeated outside the fortress, but was pursued so closely upon their retreat that fortress guns could not fire for fear of hitting friendly ships. Despite some initial setbacks at the hands of Ovlesser, the fortress eventually fell to Reinhard's forces and Ovlesser was captured. He was released to return to Geiersburg Fortress, but as he was the sole prisoner released, Duke Braunschweig suspected (falsely) that Ovlesser was a traitor and had him killed, sowing the seeds of internal suspicion and doubt within the rest of the Lippstadt League. ({{logh|020}})<br />
<br />
The Lippstadt League's sole military success came during the brief period Merkatz was allowed free rein to fight as he chose, resulting in Merkatz forcing Admiral [[Oskar von Reuenthal]] into withdrawing from the Schann-tau system. However Merkatz's authority was undermined by the division of Lippstadt forces without his notification. Braunschweig had allowed Marquis [[Wilhelm von Littenheim]] to take a third of the Lippstadt forces ostensibly to regain control over rebellious frontier fiefs. The political rivalry between Braunschweig and Littenheim was longstanding and the ulterior motive of this was to get Littenheim away from Geiersberg Fortress. Littenheim would ultimately be defeated by High Admiral Siegfried Kricheis and Geiersburg Fortress itself would come under siege by Lohengramm forces. The final straw for Merkatz was when Braunschweig declined to punish insubordinate nobles that had sortied from the fortress without permission. Despite his loss of control as the Lippstadt military commander, Merkatz still rescued Braunschweig when the duke personally led an ill-advised offensive against the besieging Lohengramm forces that resulted in the Lippstadt League losing yet more of its ships. ({{logh|022}})<br />
<br />
The [[Westerland Massacre]] was a critical turning point in the [[Imperial Civil War]]. The planet [[Westerland]] was part of the territory held by Duke Braunschweig. In the aftermath of military setbacks, the [[Lippstadt League]] began heavier resource extraction from the territories under its control in order to prepare for an anticipated siege of their main base, [[Geiersburg Fortress]]. On Westerland, this resulted in the commoners rising up in revolt and Duke Braunschweig's nephew was killed in the ensuing struggle. ({{logh|023}})<br />
<br />
Enraged by the death of his relative at the hands of commoners, Duke Braunschweig decided to make an example of the entire planet by launching nuclear missiles at it. The use of nuclear weapons on inhabited worlds had been a taboo since the [[Thirteen Day War]]. He overruled his aide, Commodore [[Ansbach]], who had advocated a more selective policy of punishing only the ringleaders of the rebellion. ({{logh|023}}) <br />
<br />
When Duke Braunschweig launched a final desperate attack against the besieging Lohengramm forces, Merkatz participated despite knowing the attack was a poor tactical decision. The Lippstadt forces were dramatically weakened from poor morale and numerous desertions in the aftermath of the Westerland Massacre. When the Lohengramm forces counterattacked, a swift collapse of the Lippstadt forces ensued and Geiersburg Fortress fell due to internal insurrection. Cut off from returning to the fortress by Lohengramm forces, Merkatz initially planned to commit suicide as he would not serve under Marquis Lohengramm, having previously sworn loyalty to the Goldenbaum Dynasty. Merkatz was persuaded by his subordinate, [[Bernhard von Schneider]], to seek refuge with [[Yang Wen-li]] in the Free Planets Alliance instead. ({{logh|023}})<br />
<br />
==Legacy==<br />
[[File:TheImperialCity.png|thumb|200px|Ships of the [[Mittermeyer Fleet]] over the [[Imperial City]] ({{d|797|uc}}).]]<br />
The defeat of the Lippstadt League broke the power of the high nobles both materially and politically, ending centuries of aristocratic influence over the Empire. Seen as the protectors of the Imperial ''ancien regime'', the aristocrats' defeat marked the end of the Goldenbaum Dynasty's existence as a meaningful political force. The Goldenbaums were still the nominal ruling house, but the seven-year old emperor Erwin Josef II would be a mere figurehead of Reinhard von Lohengramm. The estates and vast wealth hoarded by the high nobles were confiscated to replenish the Empire's treasury, and this wealth would fund Reinhard's later military expeditions. The Westerland Massacre had turned the public overwhelmingly against the nobles, dooming any attempts to restore the old status quo or the Goldenbaum Dynasty. The minister of state and acting prime minister, [[Klaus von Lichtenlade]], was arrested on charges of plotting to murder Reinhard and forced to commit suicide, ending the last barrier standing between Reinhard and absolute power. The end of the civil war also marked the beginning of major internal reforms, which aimed to produce a fairer and more just government.<br />
<br />
The conflict also resulted in the consolidation of the entire Empire's military forces under the control of Reinhard von Lohengramm. The Westerland Massacre resulted in widespread desertions from the Lippstadt League and shortened the duration of the war. As a result, the Imperial military suffered less casualties than it would have otherwise.<br />
<br />
In spite of the defeat of the Lippstadt League, a number of nobles still remained loyal to the dynasty, with some going into exile in either [[Dominion of Fezzan|Fezzan]] or the [[Free Planets Alliance]]. A short lived attempt to restore the Goldenbaum Dynasty's power occurred from {{d|798|uc}} to {{d|799|uc}}, a [[Galactic Empire Legitimate Government|"legitimate" government-in-exile]] was formed in the Free Planets Alliance with support from Alliance Chairman [[Job Trunicht]]. Led by Count [[Jochen von Remscheid]], it was actually a product of Fezzani machinations, and the Fezzanis organized the kidnapping of Erwin Josef II from Odin. The legitimate government would be disbanded following the defeat of the Alliance in [[Operation Ragnarok]].<br />
<br />
==Battle locations==<br />
*[[Altena]] ({{logh|020}})<br />
*[[Rentenberg Fortress]] ({{logh|020}})<br />
*[[Garmisch Fortress]] ({{logh|022}})<br />
*[[Geiersburg Fortress]] ({{logh|022|023}})<br />
<br />
[[Category:Galactic Empire]]<br />
[[Category:Wars]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Marr-AdettaBattle of Marr-Adetta2021-06-24T23:34:14Z<p>Iracundus: Undo revision 36353 by Kaiserprime (talk)</p>
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<div>{{infobox/battle<br />
| battle = Battle of Marr-Adetta<br />
| campaign =<br />
| war = Second Alliance-Imperial War<br />
| image-top = MarrArdetta.PNG<br />
| caption-top = The Fahrenheit Fleet moving to encircle the Alliance fleet<br />
| date = 16 January {{d|800|uc}}<br />
| location = [[Marr-Adetta Starzone]]<br />
| result = Major Imperial victory<br />
| belligerents1 = [[Free Planets Alliance]]<br />
| belligerents2 = [[New Galactic Empire]]<br />
| units1 = [[Free Planets Star Fleet]]<br />
| units2 = [[Lohengramm Fleet]]<br>[[Mittermeyer Fleet]]<br>[[Fahrenheit Fleet]]<br>[[Eisenach Fleet]]<br>[[Müller Fleet]]<br>[[Black Lancers]]<br />
| commanders1 = [[Alexandre Bewcock]]{{kia}}<br>[[Ralph Carlsen]]{{kia}}<br />
| commanders2 = [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]]<br>[[Wolfgang Mittermeyer]]<br>[[Neidhart Müller]]<br>[[Adalbert von Fahrenheit]]<br>[[Ernst von Eisenach]]<br>[[Alfred Grillparzer]]<br>[[Bruno von Knappstein]]<br />
| strength1 = 20,000 warships<br />
| strength2 = 100,000+ warships<br />
| losses1 = >16,000 ships<br />
| losses2 = >25,000 ships<br />
}}<br />
<br />
The '''Battle of Marr-Adetta Starzone''' (Japanese: '''マル・アデッタ星域会戦''') was the first and only major battle of the [[Second Alliance–Imperial War]].<br />
<br />
==History==<br />
In {{d|800|uc}}, {{rank|fpa|fleet admiral}} [[Alexandre Bewcock]] commanded the last remaining fleet in the [[Free Planets Alliance]], numbering 20,000 ships, in a desperate attempt to turn back the [[New Galactic Empire]]. Knowing that his vastly outnumbered fleet was also deficient in battleships and carriers due to the enforced demolition stipulated by the [[Treaty of Ba‘alat]], Bewcock chose to make a stand in the easily defensible [[Marr-Adetta Starzone]]. The Marr-Adetta Starzone had no planetoids exceeding 120km in diameter and was composed of 3 large dense belts of asteroids. The star itself was unstable with intense bursts of radiation and strong solar winds impairing communications. The main Alliance force deployed at the mouth of a narrow clear and navigable tunnel in one of the asteroid belts which measured 920,000km in length and 40,000km in width.<br />
<br />
The opening salvos of the battle were fired at 10:30 on 16 January {{d|800|uc}}. Within 20 minutes, Bewcock's fleet had commenced an orderly fighting withdrawal into the tunnel, pursued by the fleets of [[Alfred Grillparzer]] and [[Bruno von Knappstein]], with Grillparzer's fleet taking the vanguard. Knowing the star was unstable, Bewcock ordered the Alliance fleet to tether themselves securely with clamps to the shadowed dark side of large asteroids. At 11:20, there was an increased burst of solar flare activity and intensified solar wind which sent a flurry of small asteroids into the Imperial fleets, causing confusion and some ship losses from collisions. Grillparzer ordered his ships to stay clear of the asteroids at the edges of the tunnel, but this led to his fleet massing together and presenting a densely packed target to Bewcock's fleet, which had remained unscathed from the asteroids due to their tethers. Taking increased losses from Bewcock's concentrated firepower, Grillparzer withdrew from the tunnel, though his fleet sustained further losses from a second burst of solar activity that sent more asteroids careening through his fleet. Grillparzer's flagship, ''[[Eistla]]'', suffered damage in the withdrawal and his fleet had sustained 30% losses. Bewcock declined to pursue Grillparzer out of the tunnel, all too aware that Grillparzer and the main body of the much larger Imperial fleet had deployed in a counterattack envelopment formation at the exit from the tunnel. <br />
<br />
At 12:10, the damaged Grillparzer Fleet was ordered to withdraw, to be replaced by the Knappstein Fleet which was ordered to enter the tunnel and engage the Alliance forces. This was meant to divert the Alliance's attention from the Fahrenheit Fleet which was passing around the Alliance's left flank into the Alliance rear by going through another more distant navigable section of the asteroid belt. The Knappstein Fleet was met with fierce Alliance fire upon entry into the tunnel and dispersed into smaller groups hugging the edges of the tunnel in order to present a more diffuse target. However some of the ships of these smaller formations became isolated in the small spaces between asteroids and were picked off by concentrated Alliance fire. Knappstein's advance quickly stalled. <br />
<br />
When the Fahrenheit Fleet began advancing into the tunnel, Bewcock's fleet quickly turned around and advanced to engage Fahrenheit head on. Seeing that the Alliance had been prepared for an attack, Fahrenheit backed his fleet out of the tunnel, planning to engage Bewcock as the Alliance fleet emerged. Meanwhile, Knappstein attempted to advance further when he saw Bewcock turn away from him, but was faced by multiple dense layers of [[space mine|mines]] deployed by Bewcock, forcing Knappstein to stop to clear them with his point defence weapons. At this point, a smaller Alliance detachment under the command of [[Ralph Carlsen]] emerged from where it had been hiding among the asteroids and hit the left flank of the Fahrenheit Fleet. <br />
<br />
({{logh|071|072}})<br />
<br />
[[Category:Battles|Marradetta starzone battle of]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Galactic_EmpireGalactic Empire2021-06-24T23:33:28Z<p>Iracundus: Undo revision 36347 by Kaiserprime (talk)</p>
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<div>[[File:Goldenbaum Crest flag.png|300px|thumb|The Goldenbaum crest, flag of the Empire.]]<br />
The '''Galactic Empire''' (Japanese: '''銀河帝国''') was an interstellar nation which encompassed most of the human colony worlds within the galaxy. Ruled by a kaiser (or emperor), the Empire was, for much of its history, an autocratic monarchy structured around a rigid European-style feudal system. The Galactic Empire was established in {{d|310|uc}} by [[Rudolf von Goldenbaum]], the first emperor of the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]]. Its flag was the white crest of the Goldenbaum Dynasty, a stylised crowned two headed eagle, on a black background. The seat of government was based on the planet [[Odin]], in the Imperial palace of [[Neue Sanssouci]]. Following numerous social and political reforms after the [[Imperial Civil War]], the Galactic Empire was eventually reorganised into the [[New Galactic Empire]] with the abdication of the last Goldenbaum ruler, [[Katharin Kätchen]], in favour of [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] in {{d|799|uc}}.<br />
<br />
==History==<br />
===Precursors to empire===<br />
[[File:Galactic Federation.jpg|200px|thumb|left|The Galactic Federation preceded the Empire.]]<br />
The history of the Galactic Empire began with the [[Golden Age of Humanity]]: under the supervision of the [[Galactic Federation]], humankind spread out across the galaxy: exploring, settling, discovering. For two centuries humanity enjoyed an age of unprecedented peace and prosperity. But it was not to last. By the third century of the [[Universal Calendar]], the galaxy had entered into a period of stagnation. The great Galactic Federation was decaying, rotting from the inside.<br />
<br />
Desperate to restore their nation to its former glory, the people of the Federation turned to a war hero-turned-politician to guide them. In {{d|296|uc}}, [[Rudolf von Goldenbaum]] was elected to [[Parliament]]. He founded the [[National Reform Alliance]], a radical right-wing political party that gained complete control of the Federation government in a single decade. The NRA propelled Rudolf to the heights of Federation power: by {{d|308|uc}} he was both the Prime Minister and the President of the [[Federation]] — and the single most powerful man in human history, due to taking advantage of a loophole that did not explicitly forbid the same person from holding both positions at the same time.<br />
<br />
Rudolf's determination and will became the guiding light of the Galactic Federation. His reforms curtailed many basic freedoms of the Federation citizens, yes, but crime and delinquency rates fell to unheard of lows. In {{d|308|uc}} Rudolf declared himself "president for life," and the people cheered. Two years later (in {{d|310|uc}} he proclaimed himself the first emperor of the Galactic Federation, and there were endless parades in his honor. ({{logh|040}})<br />
<br />
===Laying the foundation===<br />
[[File:EmperorRudolf.jpg|200px|thumb|Emperor Rudolf, first ruler of the Galactic Empire.]]<br />
The vestiges of democracy did not die quietly. Upon his ascension to the throne, Emperor [[Rudolf von Goldenbaum]] immediately set to the task of reforging the Federation into a true Empire. For an entire decade, he consolidated his power, and in {{d|318|uc}} Rudolf announced the [[Inferior Genes Exclusion Act]], a galaxy-wide policy of mass-murder and persecution based on his social Darwinist views. People with lifestyles or genetic conditions deemed unhealthy to the state were sterilised, imprisoned and executed.Most social welfare programs were abolished. The [[Department of Social Discipline]] was founded — a secret police force that enforced Rudolf's reign of terror, brutalising the people and executing any deemed enemies of the state.<br />
<br />
From his allies, Rudolf formed an Imperial aristocracy — the [[Nobility]] — to serve as the backbone of his Empire. These plutocrats would soon come to control virtually all of the wealth and power in the Galaxy. It was noted that all of the newly created nobles were of white Caucasian background and they were all granted Germanic names, perhaps reflecting Rudolf's own biases. The old [[Imperial Senate]], which had been formed from the parliament which had governed the [[Federation]] for centuries, was permanently dissolved; freedom of speech rescinded. millions perished in the fires of Rudolf's revolution: and those who survived kept quiet, for fear of their own mortality. ({{logh|040}})<br />
<br />
===Uprising and revolt===<br />
[[File:Joachim von Neue Stauffen.jpg|200px|thumb|left|Prime Minister Neue Stauffen overseeing the quelling of the rebellion.]]<br />
When [[Rudolf von Goldenbaum]] died in {{d|351|uc}}, the people of the Empire rejoiced. The civilised worlds of the galaxy erupted in democratic revolution. Finally, it seemed the Empire's reign of terror would disappear and the worlds would once more regain the freedoms they had lost. With Rudolf's death, the dream of freedom was rekindled in the heart of every citizen on every world.<br />
<br />
But such dreams seldom come true. Rudolf's aristocracy was powerful. Rudolf's heir and grandson, Kaiser [[Sigismund I]] aided by his father and Prime Minister, [[Joachim von Neue Stauffen]], brutally quelled each revolt one after another. To punish them for their vain hopes, the free citizens of the Galactic Empire found themselves stripped of what few rights they had remaining. No longer citizens, they became serfs. Forced to live servile lives to the plutocrat nobles, no longer capable of commanding their own destinies.<br />
<br />
[[Sigismund I]]'s reign was brutal, and despite all of the blood spilled (or perhaps because of it), it was instrumental in consolidating the Empire's power and firmly establishing it as the sole and permanent government of all humanity. Though there was still widespread discontent among the Empire's population, most now reduced to serfdom, the oppressed found themselves too terrified of the Kaiser to even consider opposing him. This constant state of fear would ensure the Empire's survival through the succession of rulers who would succeed Sigismund I to the throne, and ensure the unquestioned authority of the Empire for centuries. ({{logh|040}}; [[Legend of Galactic Heroes Encyclopedia]])<br />
<br />
===The Great War===<br />
{{main|Alliance–Imperial War}}<br />
In {{d|640|uc}} the Galactic Empire made [[first contact]] with the [[Free Planets Alliance]], and began the [[Alliance–Imperial War]]. Founded more than a century prior in {{d|527|uc}} by the exiles of [[Arle Heinnesen]], the Free Planets Alliance was a democratic nation, founded in direct opposition to Imperial ideology. Refusing to recognise the Alliance government and decrying the Alliance as rebels mounting an insurrection against the throne, Kaiser [[Friedrich III]] dispatched an Imperial fleet under the command of Grand Duke [[Herbert]] through the [[Iserlohn Corridor]] to invade the Alliance. From the time of Rudolf I, the Empire had been undefeated in battle, and since the reign of Sigismund I, the Empire had never faced any legitimate threats to its authority; the [[high nobles]] therefore naturally assumed that their invasion of the Alliance would be no different — and were stunned when the Alliance forces, under the command of Admiral [[Lin Pao]], defeated the Imperial fleet in what would later be known as the [[Battle of Dagon]]. The defeat would trigger a mass exodus of refugees, dissidents, disaffected nobles, and criminal elements to the Alliance, swiftly increasing its size and power. The war itself soon stalemated with the front line located in the Iserlohn Corridor. The Empire remained on the offensive at the strategic level, but its attacks were either defeated by the Alliance or failed to make any lasting gains. By {{d|798|uc}}, the Empire's total population was estimated to be around 25 billion. ({{logh|040}})<br />
<br />
===The Imperial Civil War===<br />
{{main|Imperial Civil War}}<br />
[[File:Erwin Josef II coronation.png|200px|thumb|The coronation of Erwin Josef II as the 37th Kaiser ({{d|797|uc}}).]]<br />
In November of {{d|797|uc}}, the emperor of the Galactic Empire, Kaiser [[Friedrich IV]] died suddenly of a heart attack. Leaving no male heirs, the Imperial Court was thrown into chaos as it tried to determine Friedrich IV's successor.<br />
<br />
Three potential candidates to the [[Goldenbaum]] crown soon emerged, all of them grandchildren of Friedrich IV: [[Elisabeth von Braunschweig]], supported by her father, Duke [[Otho von Braunschweig]]; [[Sabine von Littenheim]], supported by her father as well, Marquis [[Wilhelm von Littenheim]]; and lastly [[Erwin Josef II]], Friedrich's five-year old grandson, supported by Imperial Minister of State, Duke [[Klaus von Lichtenlade]].<br />
<br />
All three candidates for the throne were supported by powerful nobles, but only one would gain the support of the [[Imperial Fleet]] as well: Fleet Admiral of the Imperial Fleet, [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] lent his considerable power to the cause of Erwin Josef II and duly crowned him as Kaiser. The political alliance between Reinhard and the Minister of State, Lichtenlade, frightened many of the [[High Nobles]]. This fear prompted [[Littenheim]] and [[Braunschweig]] to put aside their own dispute and form the [[Lippstadt League]], gathering many other fearful High Nobles to their cause. ({{logh|016|018}})<br />
<br />
The Lippstadt League conspired against the Imperial Government, planning to launch a pre-emptive assault on the [[Imperial Capital]] to arrest both Lichtenlade and Reinhard. Information of the planned coup leaked to [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]]'s admiralty, however, and he moved immediately to arrest the conspirators for treason. Of the total 3760 [[high nobles]] that joined the Lippstadt League, 625 were arrested, but the ringleaders of the conspiracy, Littenheim and Braunschweig, managed to escape [[Odin]]. Together, they fled to [[Geiersburg Fortress]] and marshalled their forces, determined to settle things with Reinhard on the field of battle. ({{logh|018}})<br />
<br />
Though ostensibly under the authority of High Admiral [[Merkatz]] and numerically superior to Reinhard's forces, the Lippstadt League's fleets were undisciplined and disordered. After suffering a string of defeats, the Lippstadt League was forced to withdraw to the immediate vicinity of Geiersburg, and was soon encircled by Reinhard's forces. <br />
<br />
While waiting in isolation inside the safety of Geiersburg, Braunschweig learned of a peasant revolt on the planet [[Westerland]], one of his fiefs. Incensed at the temerity of the peasants, Braunschweig ordered a nuclear attack on the world. Though Reinhard von Lohengramm learned of Braunschweig's attack in advance of it, due to the manoeuvring of [[Paul von Oberstein]] he was unable to prevent the [[Westerland Massacre|massacre]]. ({{logh|020|022}})<br />
<br />
After a particularly bloody attempt to break the siege, led by Baron [[Flegel]] ended in failure, the Imperial Fleets, fully unified by their hatred of the High Nobles' thanks in no small part to the massacre at Westerland, managed to conquer Geierberg fortress with relative ease. The leader of the Lippstadt League, [[Otho von Braunschweig]], was forced to commit suicide by his aide [[Ansbach]]. ({{logh|023}})<br />
<br />
[[File:TheImperialCity.png|200px|thumb|left|Ships of Lohengramm's forces over the Imperial City on Odin ({{d|797|uc}}).]]<br />
Shortly after the defeat of the Lippstadt League at Geiersburg, Ansbach attempted to murder [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]]. He failed, killing Imperial High Admiral [[Siegfried Kircheis]] instead. Reinhard's chief advisor, [[Paul von Oberstein]], declared that the conspirators in the assassination attempt had to be brought to justice: furthermore, he declared that Reinhard's one-time ally, Minister of State [[Klaus von Lichtenlade]], was the culprit. Two Imperial fleets led by [[Oskar von Reuenthal]] and [[Wolfgang Mittermeyer]] were dispatched to [[Odin]] with all possible haste. Thousands of warships descended through the skies of the [[Imperial City]]: Wolfgang MIttermeyer seized the [[Imperial Seal]], the symbol of the emperor's authority, at [[Neue Sanssouci]]; Oskar von Reuenthal arrested Lichtenlade, and forced him to commit suicide. ({{logh|025|026}})<br />
<br />
By the time the bulk of Reinhard's fleets reached Odin, the Imperial capital world was completely under his control. [[Erwin Josef II]], 37th Kaiser of the [[Goldenbaum Dynasty]], ruled in name only as now Duke [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] himself ruled over the Empire as both Fleet Admiral and Commander of the [[Imperial Fleet]] and Prime Minister of the Empire. ({{logh|026}})<br />
<br />
===Reformation and war===<br />
The Empire saw numerous democratic reforms upon the ascension of the 37th Kaiser, [[Erwin Josef II]], to the throne in {{d|797|uc}}. These reforms were instigated by the newly-appointed Prime Minister, [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]], who set about restoring to the people the various rights and liberties that had been stripped from them by [[Rudolf von Goldenbaum]] so many centuries earlier. The Empire's finances were restored through confiscation of the assets of the defeated nobles of the [[Lippstadt League]]. ({{logh|027}})<br />
<br />
Eager to maintain the war against the [[Free Planets Alliance]], Reinhard authorised a bold plan to pit [[Geiersberg Fortress]] directly against [[Iserlohn Fortress]] in what would become the [[Eighth Battle of Iserlohn]]. The Imperial fleets and fortress were defeated, and Admiral [[Karl Gustav Kempff]] lost his life in the attack. ({{logh|033}})<br />
<br />
[[File:Kaiserine Catherine coronation.png|thumb|200px|The coronation of Kaiserine Katharin, after Erwin Josef's abduction ({{d|798|uc}}).]]<br />
On 6 July {{d|798|uc}}, the young Emperor of the empire, [[Erwin Josef II]], was abducted by former [[High Nobles]] and taken to the [[Free Planets Alliance]], where he became the figurehead of a [[Galactic Empire Legitimate Government|government-in-exile]]. This provided Reinhard with a justification for further military action. In order to punish the remaining high-nobles who had escaped justice at the end of the [[Imperial Civil War]], Reinhard von Lohengramm organised an invasion of the Free Planets Alliance, code-named Operation Ragnarök. ({{logh|037}})<br />
<br />
Shortly after the 8-month old [[Katharin Kätchen]] was crowned Kaiserin of the Galactic Empire, Operation Ragnarök commenced: while the Free Planets Alliance was distracted by the [[Ninth Battle of Iserlohn]], multiple Imperial fleets penetrated [[Alliance]] territory through the [[Fezzan Corridor]]. The Alliance mustered its forces at the [[Battle of Rantemario]], but were defeated, but saved from being completely annihilated by the arrival of [[Yang Wen-li]] and his fleet. After regrouping at [[Heinessen]] Yang Wen-li led a guerilla campaign against the Imperial supply lines and defeated 3 Imperial fleets in succession. Reinhard directly engaged the Alliance fleets (this time under the command of Yang Wen-li) at the [[Battle of Vermilion]]. Although Yang Wen-li managed a tactical victory over Reinhard's forces, he was forced to surrender to the Imperial Fleet after [[Wolfgang Mittermeyer]] and [[Oskar von Reuenthal]] assaulted the Alliance capital, [[Heinessen]], and the [[High Council]] surrendered to the Galactic Empire unconditionally. ({{logh|038|041|048|051|052|053}})<br />
<br />
Hostilities between the Empire and the Alliance were formally ended in May with the [[Treaty of Ba‘alat]]. The following month, [[Katharin Kätchen]]'s regent would abdicate the Imperial throne, and [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] would become the first emperor of the [[New Galactic Empire]]. ({{logh|054|}})<br />
<br />
==Society==<br />
{{cleanup|section}}<br />
<br />
===Politics===<br />
The Galactic Empire was an absolute monarchy with the Kaiser in theory wielding unlimited power. In practice, the Kaiser's power was constrained by the power of the nobility, who were often responsible for the Kaiser gaining the throne and who also posed a threat of revolt or assassination. <br />
<br />
The head of government was the prime minister, until [[Otfried III]] served as prime minister during his time as crown prince. Since then, that office was left officially vacant and taboo, with its role taken up by the minister of state, who was the acting prime minister. The position of prime minister would not be filled again until [[Klaus von Lichtenlade]] assumed that position during or shortly after the Imperial civil war.<br />
<br />
As the nobility tightened its grip on Imperial power, they gradually abolished the process of promotion. In the earliest years of the Empire, common citizens who sufficiently proved their value or ability could be elevated to the ranks of nobility (or even purchase a noble title, should their own merits prove insufficient). This process of promotion allowed for a degree of upward social mobility in Imperial society, giving hope to even the lowest social classes that, through hard work, they could make a better life for themselves. Naturally, the [[high nobles]] were wary of any competition, and within a century, such hopes were futile. Imperial society — art, politics, literature, and music — entered a long period of stagnation when the aristocracy almost ceased the practice of 'ascending' regular citizens into their ranks entirely.<br />
<br />
===Foreign policy===<br />
The Empire technically had no foreign policy as it laid claim to being the sole government over all of humanity. It did not recognize the [[Free Planets Alliance]] as a nation and they were always called the "rebels" officially within the Empire. <br />
<br />
Officially the Empire claimed to be liberating the people of the planets it conquered from the "evil" Alliance. The captured populations would be sent to forced labour on the frontier for the rest of their lives in order to "rectify" them of their irrational beliefs in republicanism. ({{sl|01}})<br />
<br />
The Imperial government maintained a [[Galactic Empire High Commissioner's office|diplomatic mission]] on Fezzan, to represent its interests in the Dominion, although Fezzan was technically under the authority of the Emperor. The Fezzani autonomous government also had its own diplomatic representation on Odin.<br />
<br />
===Economy===<br />
The Galactic Empire was organised as a feudal state, with individual planets being little more than the private fiefdoms of local lords. The outlying regions of the Empire (possibly equivalent to the [[Frontier Worlds]] of the old [[Federation]]) were mostly pastoral, agrarian worlds, with only a few planets being fully industrialised, economic hubs.<br />
<br />
Deriving their power directly from the Kaiser, the nobles were given complete freedom with regard to their treatment (and governance) of their serfs, who were regarded as little more than property. Relations between the noble houses, however, were considerably more regulated. Property disputes were arbitrated by government officials, but could be settled privately, with a joust or duel. The courts were also known to almost (universally) favour noble families over commoners.<br />
<br />
The major noble houses amassed great estates and vast private wealth. Those nobles that participated in the Lippstadt League had most of their wealth confiscated by the victorious Reinhard von Lohengramm to replenish the national treasury.<br />
<br />
Its currency was the Imperial Mark. ([[Legend of Galactic Heroes Gaiden Volume 1: The Star Crusher]]: 'Cobweb')<br />
<br />
===Culture===<br />
The Galactic Empire's culture was heavily influenced by Rudolf von Goldenbaum's Germanic biases. He crafted a society modelled off 18th century Prussia and the ''Ancien Régime'' of France, and with its nobility filled with only people of Germanic descent (or those that could pass for it). This extended to architecture and styles of clothing. <br />
<br />
Freedom of speech did not exist within the Empire. [[Imperial Military Police|Secret police]] kept a watch on civilians and could arrest anyone suspected of activities or thoughts against the war, against the Kaiser, or in favour of democracy. Official representations of the founder of the Empire or the currently reigning Kaiser were sacrosanct and it was both illegal and taboo to damage them. ({{dmsn|Chapter I}}; {{logh|009}})<br />
<br />
Military service for male commoners was mandatory upon reaching the age of 20 for a minimum of 2 years. Those engaged in research in universities could apply for exemption, but in practice this would be granted only to those in fields considered "useful" by the Ministry of War such as medicine or engineering. The patriarchal theme within Imperial culture meant females did not serve in any role in the military. ({{hbshbl|8}})<br />
<br />
===Corruption===<br />
Since breeding was the biggest factor in one's social status, Imperial society bent itself in favour of the nobility and it was rare for commoners to attain high social status or military rank. In the military, high nobles often were promoted simply for being of the nobility. Fleet commanders were such because of their blood and not because of their capability. Lesser nobles and commoners simply had to appease a given high noble to progress in life. Nobles with sufficient influence could ensure they and their relatives got military postings far from the front lines. ({{dmsn|Chapter I}}) <br />
<br />
Corruption and waste was endemic throughout the Imperial military. Because high nobles and commanding officers often used bribery and embezzling, company grade officers likewise resorted to such tactics. High nobles also felt entitled to steal from the good of the Empire to pursue their own interests. Misappropriation of supplies for personal use or resale was common, and as much as one third of all food shipments went stale due to logistical inefficiency in shipping. Both issues had become so common and widespread that it was even regarded as a "necessary evil", to be kept in check rather than to be eliminated. ({{Duel|Chapter I}})<br />
<br />
The corruption and inefficiency within the Empire meant that despite having better technology, more territory, and nearly double the population of the Free Planets Alliance, the Empire as a nation had only 20% more power than the Alliance as of {{d|796|uc}} prior to the [[Battle of Astarte]]. ({{logh|027|040}})<br />
<br />
===Ethnic policies===<br />
Due to Rudolf's Germanic biases and the resulting all-white nobility, it is reasonable to assume that, at least in the Empire's early history, marginalisation of non-white minorities was prevalent. Due to the sheer amount of ethnic diversity within the Free Planets Alliance by {{d|730|UC}}, it is unlikely that the Inferior Genes Exclusion Act was applied to racial minorities within the Empire. It is, however, more likely that non-white ethnicities in the Empire were completely barred from joining the nobility or holding any meaningful positions, and that because of their total lack of upward advancement from the onset of Rudolf's ascension, these ethnic groups were eager and ready for an alternative. When the [[Battle of Dagon]] concluded, and the Alliance was revealed to the Imperial citizens, a flood of disgruntled Imperials defected to the Alliance and it would be logical that the vast majority of the non-white Imperials also left for the Alliance in this mass exodus.<br />
<br />
While it is unrealistic to assume that Empire became 'all white' after the Battle of Dagon, there seems to have been a drastic reduction in the ethnically diverse populations within the Empire and a equally drastic rise in their numbers within the Alliance. This was so prevalent that by {{d|730|UC}} there were no non-whites seen within the Imperial military or citizenry and, conversely, the Alliance was seen to have very ethnically diverse population. This is not to say that there were no other ethnicities within the Empire, but their numbers were few enough that the racist policies likely put in place in the early Empire were no longer enforced and forgotten, replaced by the noble/commoner divide that marginalised all serfs as a collective rather than specific groups. This meant that in the later history of the Empire, racism was largely forgotten, clearing the way for a smoother transition when the diverse population of the former Alliance were integrated into the [[New Galactic Empire]].<br />
<br />
==Appendices==<br />
===Background information===<br />
*The Galactic Empire refers to the Alliance simply as the 'rebels'. A more accurate translation might be the 'rebel alliance', as the Japanese words used are identical to those used in the Japanese translation of ''Star Wars'' for the Galactic Empire and Rebel Alliance, respectively.<br />
*The Lippstadt League is given the name 'rebel fleet' by Reinhard after they retreat to Geiersberg: this is the same name used to refer to the Free Planets Alliance fleet, and serves as an ironic piece of propaganda associating the Reinhard/Lichtenlade alliance as the legitimate Imperial government, and the high nobles as traitors.<br />
*Much of the dynastic politics and the Imperial government positions were patterned off of Imperial China. <br />
*The position of Prime Minister becoming vacant is a reference to the Imperial Chinese example of Crown Prince (later emperor) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Shimin Li Shimin], and how his former position in the bureaucracy was left permanently vacant and taboo after he became emperor, since it was considered presumptuous (or to have dangerous implications of intending to usurp the throne) for anyone else to occupy the position once held by an emperor.<br />
<br />
[[Category:Galactic Empire|Galactic empire]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Battle_of_ShivaBattle of Shiva2021-06-24T23:32:57Z<p>Iracundus: Undo revision 36357 by Kaiserprime (talk)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{infobox/battle<br />
| battle = Battle of Shiva<br />
| campaign =<br />
| war = <br />
| image-top = Brunhildboarded.jpg<br />
| caption-top = ''[[Brünhild]]'' after being rammed<br />
| date = Late May to June {{d|801|uc}}<br />
| location = [[Shiva Starzone]]<br />
| result = Major Iserlohn Republic victory<br />
| belligerents1 = [[Iserlohn Republic]]<br />
| belligerents2 = [[New Galactic Empire]]<br />
| units1 = Iserlohn Fleet<br><br />
| units2 = [[Lohengramm Fleet]]<br />
| commanders1 = [[Julian Mintz]]<br>[[Dusty Attemborough]]<br>[[Willibald Joachim von Merkatz]] {{kia}}<br>[[Walter von Schönkopf]] {{kia}}<br />
| commanders2 = [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]]<br>[[Wolfgang Mittermeyer]]<br>[[Ernest Mecklinger]]<br>[[Fritz Joseph Bittenfeld]]<br>[[Neidhart Müller]]<br>[[Ernst von Eisenach]]<br />
| strength1 = 9,800 warships<br>567,200 soldiers<br />
| strength2 = 51,700 warships<br>5,842,400 soldiers<br />
| losses1 = Heavy <br />
| losses2 = <br />
}}<br />
<br />
The '''Battle of Shiva Starzone''' (Japanese: '''シヴァ星域会戦''') was the final battle between the [[Iserlohn Republic]] and the [[New Galactic Empire]]. The battle saw the first meeting of [[Julian Mintz]] and [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]] along with the revelation that the Kaiser may be terminally ill as well as the deaths of many key figures for the Iserlohn Republic including Lieutenant General [[Walter von Schönkopf]] of the [[Rosen Ritter]] and High Admiral [[Willibald Joachim von Merkatz]]. It resulted in a truce between the two nations in which [[Iserlohn Fortress]] itself was ceded back to the Empire in return for the [[Ba‘alat Starzone]], including the planet [[Heinessen]] within it, being an autonomous democratic republic in a galaxy dominated by the Empire. <br />
<br />
==History==<br />
In late May {{d|801|uc}}, outside of the [[Iserlohn Corridor]], a minor skirmish escalated into a final battle between the Iserlohn Republic and the New Galactic Empire. The civilian ship, ''New Century'', was heading towards Iserlohn Fortress carrying 900 civilians seeking refuge with the Republic when it developed engine problems. Their distress call drew 2,000 ships from the Iserlohn Republic and a smaller number of Imperial ships in pursuit of the ''New Century''. The Republic forces reached the adrift ''New Century'' first and provided cover while field repairs were carried out. Though outnumbered by the Iserlohn Republic forces, the Imperial fleet opened fire in order to prevent Republic forces from a quick retreat back to Iserlohn and in the knowledge that the Droysen Fleet was en route to reinforce. The battle escalated as both sides brought in reinforcements. Julian Mintz did so in the knowledge that a good performance in battle would be necessary to win Reinhard's respect and gain the right for the Republic to negotiate with the New Galactic Empire on equal footing. Similarly, Reinhard had wanted to personally test the Republic and Mintz's abilities ever since the Republic's victory at the [[Eleventh Battle of Iserlohn]].<br />
<br />
The battle started off in a straightforward fashion, with the Empire attempting to use its numerical superiority to win via attrition. However by this time, Reinhard was unwell and feverish, and did not see that a part of the Republic's fleet totalling about 10% of the Republic's forces was in fact a decoy force composed of automated unmanned ships. As a result, the Imperial fleet dedicated a portion of their own forces to guard against the occasional feinting movements of these ships, somewhat reducing the Imperial numerical advantage.<br />
<br />
The Black Lancers managed a small breakthrough in the Alliance formation and sought Reinhard's permission to launch a general attack in order to exploit this gain. This opportunity was lost due to a lack of response from Reinhard's headquarters. This was a result of a deliberate communications blackout imposed after Reinhard suddenly collapsed on the bridge of the ''[[Brünhild]]''. The unusual sluggishness of subsequent Imperial movements was noticed by the Republic and it was decided to seize the opportunity by a direct assault upon the ''Brünhild''.<br />
<br />
The Republic forces pretended to withdraw towards Iserlohn Fortress. The leading Imperial formations lost cohesion in their eagerness to pursue, and this confusion was worsened when the Republic's unmanned ships were sent to detonate in the midst of the Black Lancers. Reversing course, Republic forces managed to break through the Imperial formation and a small group of ships closed on the ''Brünhild''. <br />
<br />
In the mad dash to the Kaiser, one of the Republic's [[Alliance strike ship (788 UC era)|strike ships]], the ''[[Istoria]]'', was able to ram the side of the ''[[Brünhild]]'' and deploy Mintz, along with Commander [[Olivier Poplin]] and the Rosen Ritter inside the Kaiser's flagship. A bloody melee ensued as the boarders tried to buy time for Mintz to find the Kaiser, who was himself preparing to meet [[Yang Wen-li]]'s successor. <br />
<br />
Meanwhile, being both confused and enraged over not knowing his Kaiser's condition nor being able to intervene and aid in the ''Brünhild''{{'}}s defence, High Admiral [[Fritz Joseph Bittenfeld]] decided to direct his anger and that of the offensive styled Black Lancers towards the rest of the Republic's fleet under the command of Merkatz, who was killed in the process. The Iserlohn Republic forces were caught between the hammer of the Black Lancers on one side and the anvil of the Eisenach Fleet on the other and took heavy losses.<br />
<br />
A bloodied and battered Mintz eventually made his way to Kaiser's room, where Fleet Admiral [[Wolfgang Mittermeyer]] had been doing his best to juggle both the ongoing fleet battle and explaining why the Kaiser was being kept out of view. Struggling to stand before Kaiser Reinhard, Mintz asked for negotiations on equal standing which was granted. This was immediately announced to all Imperial forces who ceased their offensive against the buckling remnants of the Republic's fleet thus ending the battle and the war. ({{logh|107|108}})<br />
<br />
==Legacy==<br />
<br />
The battle marked the end of an era of warfare. The decision to escalate to a full scale battle had been a major risk for the Iserlohn Republic as anything less than a victory could have left its fleet too weak to engage in further battle. The decision to assault the ''Brünhild'' had been taken with the knowledge that the alternative of a retreat back to Iserlohn would have left the Republic no closer to its goal and with its fleet weakened further by losses. Though the Republic did take heavy losses in both ships and personnel, the Imperial agreement for peace talks meant the Republic achieved its strategic goal. <br />
<br />
==Trivia==<br />
<br />
This battle was notable not only for being the last battle of the war but also for the revelation that the Kaiser suffered from an unknown terminal illness. It is also of note that this was the first time that either the ''Brünhild'' or the ''[[Hyperion]]'', both considered to be lucky ships, were ever damaged in battle. <br />
<br />
[[Category:Battles|Shiva battle of]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_CorridorBattle of the Corridor2021-06-24T23:32:24Z<p>Iracundus: Undo revision 36359 by Kaiserprime (talk)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{infobox/battle<br />
| battle = Battle of the Corridor<br />
| campaign =<br />
| war = <br />
| image-top = <br />
| caption-top = <br />
| date = April to May {{d|800|uc}}<br />
| location = [[Iserlohn Corridor]]<br />
| result = Yang Fleet Victory<br />
| belligerents1 = [[El Facil Revolutionary Government]]<br />
| belligerents2 = [[New Galactic Empire]]<br />
| units1 = [[Yang Fleet]]<br />
| units2 = [[Lohengramm Fleet]]<br />
| commanders1 = [[Yang Wen-li]]<br>[[Dusty Attemborough]]<br>[[Edwin Fischer]] {{kia}}<br>[[Willibald Joachim von Merkatz]]<br>[[Marino]]<br><br />
| commanders2 = [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]]<br>[[Wolfgang Mittermeyer]]<br> [[Oskar von Reuenthal]]<br> [[Fritz Joseph Bittenfeld]]<br>[[Adalbert von Fahrenheit]] {{kia}}<br>[[Neidhart Müller]]<br>[[Ernst von Eisenach]]<br>[[Karl Robert Steinmetz]] {{kia}}<br>[[Karl Edward Bayerlein]]<br>[[Rolf Otto Brauhitch]]<br />
| strength1 = 20,000+ warships<br />
| strength2 = ~100,000 warships<br />
| losses1 = ~10,000 ships<br />
| losses2 = 39,110 ships<br>3,791,100+ casualties<br />
}}<br />
The '''Battle of the Corridor''' (Japanese: '''回廊の戦い''') was a major battle between the [[New Galactic Empire]] and the [[El Facil Revolutionary Government]] which took place in the [[Iserlohn Corridor]] between April and May {{d|800|uc}}. It was notable as the last battle participated by [[Yang Wen-li]].<br />
<br />
==Prelude==<br />
During [[Reinhard von Lohengramm]]'s second invasion of the [[Free Planets Alliance]], Yang Wen-li had managed to recapture [[Iserlohn Fortress]] from Admiral [[Cornelius Lutz]]. ({{logh|070}})<br />
<br />
With [[Heinessen]] under Imperial control Reinhard ordered fleets to cover the ends of the Iserlohn Corridor to trap Yang's Fleet in preparation for a major attack. The Imperial end of the corridor was blocked by a small fleet under Admiral [[Ernst Mecklinger]]. However, when Mecklinger entered the corridor, Yang advanced on him with all of his 20,000 ships. Not only was this substantially larger than Mecklinger's fleet, forcing him to retreat from the corridor, it convinced Mecklinger that Yang must have had additional forces equal in number to the Imperial fleets on the Alliance end of the corridor, a fleet that could cause great damage if it broke through into the Imperial space. Unaware that Yang was bluffing, Mecklinger declined to engage and kept to a defensive position at the Empire entrance to the Corridor. This essentially neutralised Mecklinger and secured Yang's rear. ({{logh|079}})<br />
<br />
On the Alliance end of the corridor, where Reinhard intended to launch his attack, the advance force screening the corridor was split between [[Fritz Joseph Bittenfeld]] and [[Adalbert von Fahrenheit]], both aggressive admirals unsuited to the reactive nature of the task. Bittenfeld offered Yang the opportunity to surrender on terms which, while rather generous, were given condescendingly. These terms were quickly, and just as insultingly, rejected. Provoked, and inwardly looking for a reason to engage in conflict, Bittenfeld responded aggressively to an attack by [[Dusty Attemborough]] and led his [[Black Lancers]] into the corridor although he correctly surmised it to be a trap. Fahrenheit, not wishing to stand back while Bittenfeld fought, brought his own fleet to join him but in the narrow confines of the corridor, the combined force of 30,000 was unable to move freely and Yang, Attemborough and [[Willibald Joachim von Merkatz]] were able to keep them surrounded. Ultimately both Imperial fleets retreated out of the Corridor with Fahrenheit killed in the rear guard. The Imperial forces had lost 14,710 out of 31,100 ships while Yang's forces only taking modest losses. Imperial personnel losses were 695,700 out of 1,908,000 for the Black Lancers, and 1,095,400 out of 1,857,600 for the Fahrenheit Fleet. Fahrenheit was the first High Admiral of the New Galactic Empire to be killed in battle. ({{logh|079|080}})<br />
<br />
==Main battle==<br />
Reinhard was angered that Bittenfeld had begun the fight before he arrived with the main fleet but declined to punish him for acting in accordance with his nature. However the Black Lancers were kept in reserve for the early parts of the following fighting. Yang had blocked the entrance to the Corridor with an extensive minefield to limit the ability of the Imperial fleet to bring its superior numbers to bear. Imperial Admiral [[Rolf Otto Brauhitch]] was tasked with establishing a bridgehead, and cleared a path through the minefield with conventional mine clearing equipment. He came under heavy attack from Yang's forces, but Brauhitch's force was actually a feint. Mobile [[Seffle particle]] generators were brought forward and simultaneously used to clear 5 additional paths through the minefield. Yang was forced to divide his forces in a vain attempt to cover all these breaches at once. However these breaches proved to be yet another distraction tactic, and the main Imperial forces eventually passed through the path cleared by Brauhitch's fleet. Nonetheless, the main Imperial forces could not all come to grips with Yang at once so smaller forces engaged, trying to draw off portions of the Yang Fleet to destroy in detail. However, poor co-ordination made this less than successful. An unsuccessful stratagem devised by [[Oskar von Reuenthal]], by which the ''[[Brünhild]]'' would withdraw and deliberately create a gap in the Imperial lines, gave Yang the opportunity to charge through the gap before it could be filled, in an attempt to destroy the ''Brünhild''. Reinhard personally intervened, instantly determining the point that maintained Yang's cohesion and breaking it with concentrated artillery fire. At the moment the Yang Fleet retreated, Reinhard fell ill, and the Imperial fleet also pulled back.({{logh|080}})<br />
<br />
Battle resumed late on 7 May, with the Imperial fleet seeking to use attritional warfare to batter through Yang's fleet, which had been depleted of supplies and had many damaged ships. Three waves of attackers were beaten back by Yang and the ''[[Beowulf]]'' was damaged, leading to a mistaken report that Fleet Admiral [[Wolfgang Mittermeyer]] had been killed, although this was quickly corrected. Yang then launched a counter attack that forestalled a fourth wave that would have been made up of the survivors of the Black Lancers and Fahrenheit's fleet. Rather than withdrawing Bittenfeld pressed the attack with the best of his Black Lancers, surprising Yang who had expected him to be demoralised. An attempt to catch this force in a pincer failed but they had to pull back after Yang sent Attemborough to attack the rest of the fourth wave, pushing them back. Although unsuccessful, Bittenfeld's attack caused heavy losses to the Yang Fleet, including the death of Admiral [[Edwin Fischer]] who was responsible for their previous excellent co-ordination. ({{logh|081}})<br />
<br />
Unaware of the weakened status of his opponent, the Imperial fleet did not press the attack, partly due to Reinhard having collapsed with fatigue. Mittermeyer and Reuenthal decided to withdraw from the Corridor, having suffered heavy losses, with 2,000,000 dead and 24,400 ships lost. Cognisant of the weakened state of his own forces, Yang withdrew his own fleet back to Iserlohn, laying a new minefield to block passage. ({{logh|081}})<br />
<br />
[[Category:Battles|Corridor battle of]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Eleventh_Battle_of_IserlohnEleventh Battle of Iserlohn2021-06-24T23:31:57Z<p>Iracundus: Undo revision 36354 by Kaiserprime (talk)</p>
<hr />
<div>{{infobox/battle<br />
| battle = Eleventh Battle of Iserlohn<br />
| campaign =<br />
| war = <br />
| image-top = Wahlen Fleet approaching Iserlohn.jpg<br />
| caption-top = '''The Wahlen Fleet approaching Iserlohn Fortress'''<br />
| date = February {{d|801|uc}}<br />
| location = [[Iserlohn Fortress]]<br />
| result = Iserlohn Republic victory<br />
| belligerents1 = [[Iserlohn Republic]]<br />
| belligerents2 = [[New Galactic Empire]]<br />
| units1 = Iserlohn Fleet<br>[[Iserlohn Fortress]]<br />
| units2 = [[Wahlen Fleet]]<br>Wagenseil Fleet<br />
| commanders1 = [[Julian Mintz]]<br>[[Dusty Attemborough]]<br>[[Willibald Joachim von Merkatz]]<br />
| commanders2 = [[August Samuel Wahlen]]<br>Wagenseil<br />
| strength1 = 6,600+ war ships<br />
| strength2 = 21,000+ war ships<br />
| losses1 = Light <br />
| losses2 = 400,000 casualties<br />
}}<br />
<br />
The '''Eleventh Battle of Iserlohn''' (Japanese: '''第11次イゼルローン攻防戦''') was the eleventh battle fought around [[Iserlohn Fortress]]. This battle involved forces from the [[New Galactic Empire]] assaulting the forces of the [[Iserlohn Republic]], which held Iserlohn Fortress. <br />
<br />
==Battle==<br />
On 7 February {{d|801|uc}}, the [[Wahlen Fleet]] stationed on the former [[Free Planets Alliance]] side of the Iserlohn Corridor detected the [[Iserlohn Republic]] fleet leaving the fortress and heading towards the Imperial end of the Corridor, which was guarded by the 8,500 ship strong Wagenseil Fleet. The Wahlen Fleet advanced on Iserlohn Fortress to take advantage of the seeming opportunity to seize Iserlohn Fortress.<br />
<br />
The Iserlohn fleet, led by [[Julian Mintz]], numbered 6,600. <br />
<br />
The Iserlohn fleet and the Wagenseil Fleet traded fire at 04:20 12 February {{d|801|uc}}. There was a battle between the fighter forces of both sides, with [[Olivier Poplin]] and his [[Spartanian]] fighters defeating the Imperial fighters. Subsequently at 05:40 that same day, the Iserlohn fleet started withdrawing back to the fortress. The Wagenseil Fleet pursued, with Admiral Wagenseil hoping to perform a "parallel pursuit" in which the Imperial fleet would follow so closely behind the retreating Iserlohn forces that Iserlohn Fortress could not fire the [[Thor Hammer]] without hitting friendly forces. During the [[Sixth Battle of Iserlohn]], Alliance forces had attempted this same strategy but had been defeated when Imperial forces fired the [[Thor Hammer]] anyway despite destroying some of their own forces.<br />
<br />
Julian Mintz had anticipated this possibility and maintained a fighting withdrawal over 2 days, while keeping updated on the progress of the Wahlen Fleet towards the fortress. Shortly before reaching the effective range of the Thor Hammer, Julian launched a sudden attack throwing the Wagenseil Fleet into temporary confusion, before continuing to withdraw towards Iserlohn Fortress. Provoked by this attack, the Wagenseil Fleet resumed pursuit and entered the range of the Thor Hammer, but by this point enough of a gap had opened up between the Iserlohn fleet and the Wagenseil Fleet for the Thor Hammer to have a clear shot. Belatedly, the Wagenseil Fleet turned to withdraw but they were hit by a firing of the Thor Hammer before they could retreat out of effective range. <br />
<br />
Meanwhile, Julian Mintz had turned his fleet to face the oncoming Wahlen Fleet, which was advancing with the hope of being able to enter and assault Iserlohn Fortress before the Thor Hammer could recharge for another shot. The Wahlen Fleet's left flank was hit by an ambush composed of a detached squadron of Iserlohn Republic ships led by [[Merkatz]], and shortly afterwards was hit from the 2 o'clock direction by Julian's fleet. The Wahlen Fleet was over double the size of Julian's fleet and counterattacked. However the Iserlohn fleet held firm and the Wahlen Fleet could not break through before the Thor Hammer recharged. <br />
<br />
Recognising it was no longer possible to reach the fortress, Wahlen turned his fleet around to retreat. After being hit once by the Thor Hammer, Wahlen ordered his fleet to spread out, to present a sparser target. The Thor Hammer quickly fired a second time, presumably at reduced power, blowing another hole in the Wahlen Fleet, before it finally retreated out of range. ({{logh|102}}) <br />
<br />
==Aftermath==<br />
Imperial casualties stood at 400,000. Compared to other previous battles of the era, it was a small battle, but it was the first victory by republican forces over Imperial forces since the death of [[Yang Wen-li]]. This victory achieved several political effects. It shored up Julian Mintz's standing and support within the Iserlohn Republic, as well as boosting the morale of the Iserlohn Republic. It also demonstrated to the inhabitants of the former Free Planets Alliance that the Iserlohn Republic was willing and able to fight the New Galactic Empire. ({{logh|102}})<br />
<br />
The Wahlen Fleet subsequently did not participate in the [[Battle of Shiva]] due to the damage suffered in this battle.<br />
({{logh|107}})<br />
<br />
[[Category:Battles|Iserlohn 11 battle of]]</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:Eleventh_Battle_of_IserlohnTalk:Eleventh Battle of Iserlohn2021-06-01T09:09:27Z<p>Iracundus: /* Picture of the Battle */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Casualties==<br />
<br />
Now personally I find this battle the most well animated out of all the battles in the series from a technical point of view, with no re-use of previous footage, and those nice close side fly-by shots of the Imperial and Alliance ships. <br />
<br />
However the casualty count for the Imperials seems awfully low considering there were 3 firings of the Thor Hammer even if the final one was at reduced power, and considering the damage to the Wahlen Fleet was supposed to be significant enough that it did not participate in the Battle of Shiva. Within this episode between the actual fleet battle and then the Imperial ships being blown away by the Thor Hammer, I think a visual count of destroyed ships would show a not entirely insignificant number of that 400,000. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 07:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Given the show's very consistent ~120 men per ship casualty rate, it works out as over 3,000 ships destroyed - or over 1,000 ships per Thor Hammer blast assuming equal power shots. However shouldn't focus just on destroyed ships, but also damaged ships - we seen that even after the weapon has fired, there are ships that have suffered damage. Its possible that though the Wahlen Fleet did not suffer huge numbers of ship losses, the damage to surviving ships might be enough to render its combat capability substantially reduced. 100% agree on this being the best looking battle of the series technically speaking - it was a refreshing change of the very ugly looking Second Battle of Rantemario (Episode 96). Was the B team animating that, becuase everything about it just looks ... wrong. The ships are misshapen and rounded. Curiously it was rectified immediately after in Episode 97. A close second for me in terms of animation is Battle of Marr-Adetta, it looks great. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 07:36, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Personal speculation is that maybe they had cash flow issues and had to re-use a lot of stuff for 2nd Rantemario though your idea of it being perhaps another team might also be the case (subcontracting is common in anime production). On the original topic however, we do see the Wahlen Fleet have literal holes blown in its formation. Any ships caught squarely in those blasts would have been completely wiped out, inflicting the total crew number in casualties. Now ships on the outskirts might have suffered damage and have casualties on board without total ship destruction, but if only roughly 1,000 ships are destroyed per Thor Hammer shot and Wahlen had over 13,000 ships (remember he had over double Julian's main fleet), that would still leave 11,000 ships. Now knock off another 2,000 as damaged and not fit for combat, that still leaves 9,000. Given the Iserlohn fleet at the Battle of Shiva was 9,800 in total, a 9,000 strong Wahlen Fleet should still be capable of participating in battle. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 09:05, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Given the standard fleet size for a High Admiral in the Goldenlöwe dynasty was 15,000 - 15,900 ships (explicit numbers for Mecklinger, Fahrenheit, Eisenach and Black Lancers all falling in that range) I'm almost certain that Wahlen would've had at least 15,000 ships too. Perhaps even though damaged Wahlen alone would've had more than Julian, the damage inflicted meant that Wahlen's fleet would not be operating at peak efficiency - i.e. Reinhard would rather have Wahlen's fleet resting and recovering than committing it to battle and having it cop more casualties than it normally would because of its damaged, less numerous state. Another interesting thing about the Goldenlöwe Dynasty is that those with high ranks generally commanded less ships than during their counterparts in the Goldebaum dynasty - e.g. where a Vice Admiral of the Goldenbaums would command at least 10,000 ships, full Admirals of the Goldenlöwe would command 6,000 - 8,500. Same with High Admirals - Reinhard and Mittermeyer both had confirmed fleets of 20,000 ships each in the Goldenbaum period. This could signify a reduction in overall fleet strength in recognition of the changing times, given that the Free Planets Alliance's massive fleet had long since ceased to exist. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 10:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::There was significant rank inflation by the end, especially if all the remaining High Admirals were promoted to Fleet Admirals upon Reinhard's death. Also the massive and frequent battles during Reinhard's time, including the 2 civil wars that afflicted the Empire, would have led to attrition of the total Imperial fleet numbers by the end. Previously, the Alliance and Goldenbaum dynasty were just sparring, with one side retreating after a battle and the other side not truly following up the victory with pursuit and annihilation of the enemy. Both sides were really just fighting to win battles, and not really the war. Even victorious, I would think the total rate of Imperial ship losses during Reinhard's period would have outstripped production. Reinhard's fleet in the Battle of Shiva was half that during the Battle of the Corridor, and only a little larger even when one accounts for the non-participating Imperial fleets. <br />
<br />
::::Of all fleets, I would think the Black Lancers too would have been the most understrength or at risk of becoming a hodgepodge fleet with half of them really being Fahrenheit's old fleet, with standard battleships instead of fast battleships. The Black Lancers were mauled by Yang in the Corridor, absorbed Fahrenheit's fleet, then again took presumably heavy casualties at the Second Battle of Rantemario. Either the Black Lancers were taking all new fast battleship production (or taking in existing ones from other fleets) or their core force of fast battleships would have shrunken by the time of the Battle of Shiva. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::Yeah, especially where the expense of the repeated military expeditions is explicitly highlighted late in the series. As for the Black Lancers specifically, I thought after 2nd Rantemario they were pretty much back to how they were - I thought the battle served to bind the former Fahrenheit to Bittenfeld through his sheer force of personality. Its notable that there's no mention of any dissension or malingering in the Black Lancer ranks when Bittenfeld was arrested - they all almost turned to violence in unison for Bittenfeld. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:19, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::The expenses were probably starting to tell, accounting for Oberstein's opposition to further expeditions. He was always loyal to the idea of the Empire even above and beyond the individual Kaiser, and quite rightly criticized further expeditions on the basis that Reinhard's personal ideas of honour and desire for fighting was treating the assets of the Empire as his own personal rivate assets. Reinhard's treasury had been replenished by the confiscated assets of the high nobles, but repeated expeditions would surely have drained that. The proposed plan for building 2 fortresses on either end of the Fezzan Corridor would also have been further massive military spending (if they ever actually were built). Reinhard's "burn rate" of ships, personnel, and money probably exceeded the Goldenbaum dynasty period, and was sustainable only because it was a short period.<br />
<br />
::::::Regarding the Black Lancers, I was actually more referring to their equipment. In 2nd Rantemario, we still see Fahrenheit's forces with black painted standard battleships, whereas the original Black Lancers are using their fast battleships, showing that the supply of fast battleships isn't sufficient to re-equip the entirety of the old Fahrenheit fleet. The power of the Black Lancers lay in their concentration of fast battleships into one force, allowing them to shatter enemies like ancient cavalry charges or armoured spearheads. Having part of their strength be in slower standard battleships would have been like mixing infantry in with the cavalry, diluting the original fast shock force concept. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::: I think construction had begun on the fortress before the series was finished, overseen by Mittermeyer. As to the Black Lancers, in addition to their equipment, IIRC they were considered elite troops. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 13:52, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Animation==<br />
Oh yeah, I forgot - for all this battle's excellence in presentation and animation quality, the pet peeve I have is the few bizarre lighting issues. The ''Valendown'' is shrouded in shadow the only time we get a good look at her, and this odd ... "bug" is very prominent immediately when a Fast Battleship is struck by a pair of beams - perfectly visible prior, on impact the whole ship promptly goes black. Huh? [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes I noticed the same with the fast battleship. It doesn't make sense but I suppose they were trying to go for something where the debris is lit only by the hot gas and debris of the explosion. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:18, 3 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==What the Imperials should have done==<br />
<br />
Wagenseil's fleet should have pushed on regardless instead of turning away (or turned back again after seeing Wahlen on the other side). It would have taken heavy damage but it would have forced Julian to make the difficult choice of either facing them and leaving Wahlen to advance unchecked, or leaving Iserlohn open to Wagenseil if Julian moved to block Wahlen. The logical choice for Julian would have still been to block Wahlen's larger force, but even so Wahlen was grinding them down. The Thor Hammer would have likely therefore been engaging Wahlen, leaving Wagenseil a clear shot at assaulting the fortress. Though Wahlen would have taken heavier losses by pressing on and taking the Thor Hammer hits, he might have stood a chance of breaking through the thinner Iserlohn forces, and then Wahlen and Wagenseil combined might have had enough to overwhelm Iserlohn's small garrison through numbers. Now it is possible Wagenseil would still have been defeated by Iserlohn's smaller floating gun turrets but the outcome would have been more in doubt than what actually happened. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:58, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Also, as the higher officers noted, if Wagenseil had been paying attention, he would've seen Merkatz's detachment too - this may have allowed him to reorganize his formation and close with the fortress before the Thor Hammer could finish coming around. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:43, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::And if Yang had simply fired at the Brunhilde at the end of the Battle of Vermillion rather than taking in nonsensical orders that pretty much his entire fleet disagreed with, he'd have likely lived longer than he did by not firing. But that would also have ended the story. Same thing here: had Julian been forced out of Iserlohn, he'd have had to surrender shortly thereafter. That would also have cut the story short. Sometimes, for the story to go on, one side is meant to win. ^_^ [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
:::This was one of those battles, like the Battle of Shiva, that evolved out of a skirmish, and which was unplanned (at least for the Imperials). It showed the mediocrity of the following generation of Imperial admirals. I think Wagenseil, like Thurneysen, was an example of the later generation hungry to earn some glory and rank before the era of war ended, leading them to take risks and aggressive actions that bring them to grief. Wagenseil's position was simply to guard the exit of the Corridor. He could have not pursued when Julian disengaged, but he got greedy. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 20:37, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::I think the quality of Imperial admirals in the following generation was "uneven" at best. Thurneysen was foolish, and Wagenseil was a mediocrity, but on the other hand Brauhitch was a solid performer (survivor of Vermilion, opened the way at the Corridor) - as were Mittermeyer's men - Bayerlein, Droisen, Sinzer and Bülow. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 23:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Oh, and don't forget Holzbauer of the Lutz Fleet (smashed Knappstein) or the guy (whose name escapes me atm) who shielded Reuenthal's withdrawal at Second Rantemario. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 05:18, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::The 'What if?' factor of LoGH has always been interesting. Going all the way back to Astarte, where the question arises that if Jean Robert Lap had survived, would things be different? Assuming Yang was right when he called Lap his equal, how would the Empire have faired against another Yang-like shrewd officer, even if he hadn't reached Yang's level of fame and influence? In any event, the later Imperial admirals seem to demonstrate the overall issues inherent with creating a competent body of officers. Reinhard succeeded initially because he picked the cream of the crop; the poor officers simply soldiered on in other admiralties until their demise and were of no concern. Reinhard could no longer do it once he was responsible for the entire military though. He had the whole gamut, and nowhere to dump the incompetent ones unless he could prove they were incompetent, although he tried to give them less important commands. Reinhard couldn't let the rest of the Imperial military simply die as he had when he was only responsible for part of it. 06:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::I have never really considered Bayerlein, Droisen, Sinzer and Bülow that great. Bayerlein was always getting himself into trouble and needing to be saved. The others due to their hot-headedness created openings for the enemy, such as their chaotic rush for the apparently retreating Iserlohn forces as the Battle of Shiva (which of course turned out to be a feint). They may be competent but their rashness keeps them from being great. Partly I ascribe that to youth, partly to their character, and partly due to their circumstances. They have seen the examples of Reinhard, Kircheis, Mittermeyer, Reuenthal, etc. spring up the ranks due to their performance in war, and were trying to emulate their examples and advance their careers. This same desire for career advancement is what led Grillparzer and Knappstein to their little scheme to side with then betray Reuenthal. <br />
<br />
::::::As leader of the whole military, Reinhard had to give the image of impartiality and give opportunities to people to achieve glory in battle. That's one reason why Kempff was chosen instead of Mittermeyer or Reuenthal to do the fortress battle, and why Sombart was chosen for securing the supply line. Reinhard couldn't be seen to be giving jobs only to the same people over and over again, else he would appear to be engaging in favoritism, which could breed resentment. By giving the opportunity for people to succeed, he had to also give them the opportunity to fail. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:47, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::::Bayerlein, during the Battle of the Corridor, stated, when it seemed clear that he was playing right into Yang's hands, that if he got into trouble, that Mittermeyer would get him out if worst came to worst. He wasn't thinking of a strategy if in a pinch. He was relying on his superior to do it FOR him. So, no, Bayerlein wasn't that great, I agree. Certainly not upper tier. [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
Note, saying someone is "solid" is nowhere near the same as saying they're great or upper tier (that is the province of Reinhard's High Admirals and above). They're competent and don't make glaring errors, nothing more. There's a differnece between getting legitimately outfought by your betters (i.e. Bayerlein vs Yang or Reuenthal) and making a thorough ass of yourself. As for Bayerlein in the Corridor, he knew his place in the grand scheme - he had a small force and if Yang was going to trap him, there'd be very little he could do to get out of it, so he deliberately went ahead to change the situation within the limits of his abilities. Part of being a subordinate is knowing your place and the limits of your capabilities. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 13:16, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Well, even as subordinates, had they been in this situation, Yang or Reinhard would have been able to not only get out of a trap, but likely make the bigger fleet look foolish. But thats what legends do, I suppose: something legendary. ^^ [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
::Exactly so :) [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 10:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Picture of the Battle==<br />
<br />
Actually, speaking purely from personal artistic preference, what about instead of the Thor hammer firing from that angle, it was instead either Wahlen's fleet approaching Iserlohn (the shot where the battleship does a flyby of the camera such as the first 4 seconds from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgGP5TuMYdM ), or perhaps Wagenseil's fleet with the circular glow of the Thor Hammer shot behind them about to hit them? Or perhaps when Julian counterattacks against Wagenseil and all those Imperial ships are exploding or pointing in different directions? There is also the shot of Wahlen's ships getting cored by Merkatz's flank attack. Just thinking of dramatic ship images for the battle.<br />
<br />
[[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:32, 31 May 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Ok, I have changed the image to a shot of the Wahlen Fleet approaching Iserlohn. [[User:Glacierfairy|Glacierfairy]] 14:48, 31 May 2021 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Thanks, I just figure the more variety in images the better. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 09:09, 1 June 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:Eleventh_Battle_of_IserlohnTalk:Eleventh Battle of Iserlohn2021-05-31T12:55:07Z<p>Iracundus: /* Picture of the Battle */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Casualties==<br />
<br />
Now personally I find this battle the most well animated out of all the battles in the series from a technical point of view, with no re-use of previous footage, and those nice close side fly-by shots of the Imperial and Alliance ships. <br />
<br />
However the casualty count for the Imperials seems awfully low considering there were 3 firings of the Thor Hammer even if the final one was at reduced power, and considering the damage to the Wahlen Fleet was supposed to be significant enough that it did not participate in the Battle of Shiva. Within this episode between the actual fleet battle and then the Imperial ships being blown away by the Thor Hammer, I think a visual count of destroyed ships would show a not entirely insignificant number of that 400,000. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 07:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Given the show's very consistent ~120 men per ship casualty rate, it works out as over 3,000 ships destroyed - or over 1,000 ships per Thor Hammer blast assuming equal power shots. However shouldn't focus just on destroyed ships, but also damaged ships - we seen that even after the weapon has fired, there are ships that have suffered damage. Its possible that though the Wahlen Fleet did not suffer huge numbers of ship losses, the damage to surviving ships might be enough to render its combat capability substantially reduced. 100% agree on this being the best looking battle of the series technically speaking - it was a refreshing change of the very ugly looking Second Battle of Rantemario (Episode 96). Was the B team animating that, becuase everything about it just looks ... wrong. The ships are misshapen and rounded. Curiously it was rectified immediately after in Episode 97. A close second for me in terms of animation is Battle of Marr-Adetta, it looks great. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 07:36, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Personal speculation is that maybe they had cash flow issues and had to re-use a lot of stuff for 2nd Rantemario though your idea of it being perhaps another team might also be the case (subcontracting is common in anime production). On the original topic however, we do see the Wahlen Fleet have literal holes blown in its formation. Any ships caught squarely in those blasts would have been completely wiped out, inflicting the total crew number in casualties. Now ships on the outskirts might have suffered damage and have casualties on board without total ship destruction, but if only roughly 1,000 ships are destroyed per Thor Hammer shot and Wahlen had over 13,000 ships (remember he had over double Julian's main fleet), that would still leave 11,000 ships. Now knock off another 2,000 as damaged and not fit for combat, that still leaves 9,000. Given the Iserlohn fleet at the Battle of Shiva was 9,800 in total, a 9,000 strong Wahlen Fleet should still be capable of participating in battle. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 09:05, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Given the standard fleet size for a High Admiral in the Goldenlöwe dynasty was 15,000 - 15,900 ships (explicit numbers for Mecklinger, Fahrenheit, Eisenach and Black Lancers all falling in that range) I'm almost certain that Wahlen would've had at least 15,000 ships too. Perhaps even though damaged Wahlen alone would've had more than Julian, the damage inflicted meant that Wahlen's fleet would not be operating at peak efficiency - i.e. Reinhard would rather have Wahlen's fleet resting and recovering than committing it to battle and having it cop more casualties than it normally would because of its damaged, less numerous state. Another interesting thing about the Goldenlöwe Dynasty is that those with high ranks generally commanded less ships than during their counterparts in the Goldebaum dynasty - e.g. where a Vice Admiral of the Goldenbaums would command at least 10,000 ships, full Admirals of the Goldenlöwe would command 6,000 - 8,500. Same with High Admirals - Reinhard and Mittermeyer both had confirmed fleets of 20,000 ships each in the Goldenbaum period. This could signify a reduction in overall fleet strength in recognition of the changing times, given that the Free Planets Alliance's massive fleet had long since ceased to exist. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 10:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::There was significant rank inflation by the end, especially if all the remaining High Admirals were promoted to Fleet Admirals upon Reinhard's death. Also the massive and frequent battles during Reinhard's time, including the 2 civil wars that afflicted the Empire, would have led to attrition of the total Imperial fleet numbers by the end. Previously, the Alliance and Goldenbaum dynasty were just sparring, with one side retreating after a battle and the other side not truly following up the victory with pursuit and annihilation of the enemy. Both sides were really just fighting to win battles, and not really the war. Even victorious, I would think the total rate of Imperial ship losses during Reinhard's period would have outstripped production. Reinhard's fleet in the Battle of Shiva was half that during the Battle of the Corridor, and only a little larger even when one accounts for the non-participating Imperial fleets. <br />
<br />
::::Of all fleets, I would think the Black Lancers too would have been the most understrength or at risk of becoming a hodgepodge fleet with half of them really being Fahrenheit's old fleet, with standard battleships instead of fast battleships. The Black Lancers were mauled by Yang in the Corridor, absorbed Fahrenheit's fleet, then again took presumably heavy casualties at the Second Battle of Rantemario. Either the Black Lancers were taking all new fast battleship production (or taking in existing ones from other fleets) or their core force of fast battleships would have shrunken by the time of the Battle of Shiva. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::Yeah, especially where the expense of the repeated military expeditions is explicitly highlighted late in the series. As for the Black Lancers specifically, I thought after 2nd Rantemario they were pretty much back to how they were - I thought the battle served to bind the former Fahrenheit to Bittenfeld through his sheer force of personality. Its notable that there's no mention of any dissension or malingering in the Black Lancer ranks when Bittenfeld was arrested - they all almost turned to violence in unison for Bittenfeld. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:19, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::The expenses were probably starting to tell, accounting for Oberstein's opposition to further expeditions. He was always loyal to the idea of the Empire even above and beyond the individual Kaiser, and quite rightly criticized further expeditions on the basis that Reinhard's personal ideas of honour and desire for fighting was treating the assets of the Empire as his own personal rivate assets. Reinhard's treasury had been replenished by the confiscated assets of the high nobles, but repeated expeditions would surely have drained that. The proposed plan for building 2 fortresses on either end of the Fezzan Corridor would also have been further massive military spending (if they ever actually were built). Reinhard's "burn rate" of ships, personnel, and money probably exceeded the Goldenbaum dynasty period, and was sustainable only because it was a short period.<br />
<br />
::::::Regarding the Black Lancers, I was actually more referring to their equipment. In 2nd Rantemario, we still see Fahrenheit's forces with black painted standard battleships, whereas the original Black Lancers are using their fast battleships, showing that the supply of fast battleships isn't sufficient to re-equip the entirety of the old Fahrenheit fleet. The power of the Black Lancers lay in their concentration of fast battleships into one force, allowing them to shatter enemies like ancient cavalry charges or armoured spearheads. Having part of their strength be in slower standard battleships would have been like mixing infantry in with the cavalry, diluting the original fast shock force concept. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::: I think construction had begun on the fortress before the series was finished, overseen by Mittermeyer. As to the Black Lancers, in addition to their equipment, IIRC they were considered elite troops. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 13:52, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Animation==<br />
Oh yeah, I forgot - for all this battle's excellence in presentation and animation quality, the pet peeve I have is the few bizarre lighting issues. The ''Valendown'' is shrouded in shadow the only time we get a good look at her, and this odd ... "bug" is very prominent immediately when a Fast Battleship is struck by a pair of beams - perfectly visible prior, on impact the whole ship promptly goes black. Huh? [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes I noticed the same with the fast battleship. It doesn't make sense but I suppose they were trying to go for something where the debris is lit only by the hot gas and debris of the explosion. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:18, 3 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==What the Imperials should have done==<br />
<br />
Wagenseil's fleet should have pushed on regardless instead of turning away (or turned back again after seeing Wahlen on the other side). It would have taken heavy damage but it would have forced Julian to make the difficult choice of either facing them and leaving Wahlen to advance unchecked, or leaving Iserlohn open to Wagenseil if Julian moved to block Wahlen. The logical choice for Julian would have still been to block Wahlen's larger force, but even so Wahlen was grinding them down. The Thor Hammer would have likely therefore been engaging Wahlen, leaving Wagenseil a clear shot at assaulting the fortress. Though Wahlen would have taken heavier losses by pressing on and taking the Thor Hammer hits, he might have stood a chance of breaking through the thinner Iserlohn forces, and then Wahlen and Wagenseil combined might have had enough to overwhelm Iserlohn's small garrison through numbers. Now it is possible Wagenseil would still have been defeated by Iserlohn's smaller floating gun turrets but the outcome would have been more in doubt than what actually happened. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:58, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Also, as the higher officers noted, if Wagenseil had been paying attention, he would've seen Merkatz's detachment too - this may have allowed him to reorganize his formation and close with the fortress before the Thor Hammer could finish coming around. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:43, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::And if Yang had simply fired at the Brunhilde at the end of the Battle of Vermillion rather than taking in nonsensical orders that pretty much his entire fleet disagreed with, he'd have likely lived longer than he did by not firing. But that would also have ended the story. Same thing here: had Julian been forced out of Iserlohn, he'd have had to surrender shortly thereafter. That would also have cut the story short. Sometimes, for the story to go on, one side is meant to win. ^_^ [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
:::This was one of those battles, like the Battle of Shiva, that evolved out of a skirmish, and which was unplanned (at least for the Imperials). It showed the mediocrity of the following generation of Imperial admirals. I think Wagenseil, like Thurneysen, was an example of the later generation hungry to earn some glory and rank before the era of war ended, leading them to take risks and aggressive actions that bring them to grief. Wagenseil's position was simply to guard the exit of the Corridor. He could have not pursued when Julian disengaged, but he got greedy. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 20:37, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::I think the quality of Imperial admirals in the following generation was "uneven" at best. Thurneysen was foolish, and Wagenseil was a mediocrity, but on the other hand Brauhitch was a solid performer (survivor of Vermilion, opened the way at the Corridor) - as were Mittermeyer's men - Bayerlein, Droisen, Sinzer and Bülow. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 23:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Oh, and don't forget Holzbauer of the Lutz Fleet (smashed Knappstein) or the guy (whose name escapes me atm) who shielded Reuenthal's withdrawal at Second Rantemario. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 05:18, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::The 'What if?' factor of LoGH has always been interesting. Going all the way back to Astarte, where the question arises that if Jean Robert Lap had survived, would things be different? Assuming Yang was right when he called Lap his equal, how would the Empire have faired against another Yang-like shrewd officer, even if he hadn't reached Yang's level of fame and influence? In any event, the later Imperial admirals seem to demonstrate the overall issues inherent with creating a competent body of officers. Reinhard succeeded initially because he picked the cream of the crop; the poor officers simply soldiered on in other admiralties until their demise and were of no concern. Reinhard could no longer do it once he was responsible for the entire military though. He had the whole gamut, and nowhere to dump the incompetent ones unless he could prove they were incompetent, although he tried to give them less important commands. Reinhard couldn't let the rest of the Imperial military simply die as he had when he was only responsible for part of it. 06:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::I have never really considered Bayerlein, Droisen, Sinzer and Bülow that great. Bayerlein was always getting himself into trouble and needing to be saved. The others due to their hot-headedness created openings for the enemy, such as their chaotic rush for the apparently retreating Iserlohn forces as the Battle of Shiva (which of course turned out to be a feint). They may be competent but their rashness keeps them from being great. Partly I ascribe that to youth, partly to their character, and partly due to their circumstances. They have seen the examples of Reinhard, Kircheis, Mittermeyer, Reuenthal, etc. spring up the ranks due to their performance in war, and were trying to emulate their examples and advance their careers. This same desire for career advancement is what led Grillparzer and Knappstein to their little scheme to side with then betray Reuenthal. <br />
<br />
::::::As leader of the whole military, Reinhard had to give the image of impartiality and give opportunities to people to achieve glory in battle. That's one reason why Kempff was chosen instead of Mittermeyer or Reuenthal to do the fortress battle, and why Sombart was chosen for securing the supply line. Reinhard couldn't be seen to be giving jobs only to the same people over and over again, else he would appear to be engaging in favoritism, which could breed resentment. By giving the opportunity for people to succeed, he had to also give them the opportunity to fail. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:47, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::::Bayerlein, during the Battle of the Corridor, stated, when it seemed clear that he was playing right into Yang's hands, that if he got into trouble, that Mittermeyer would get him out if worst came to worst. He wasn't thinking of a strategy if in a pinch. He was relying on his superior to do it FOR him. So, no, Bayerlein wasn't that great, I agree. Certainly not upper tier. [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
Note, saying someone is "solid" is nowhere near the same as saying they're great or upper tier (that is the province of Reinhard's High Admirals and above). They're competent and don't make glaring errors, nothing more. There's a differnece between getting legitimately outfought by your betters (i.e. Bayerlein vs Yang or Reuenthal) and making a thorough ass of yourself. As for Bayerlein in the Corridor, he knew his place in the grand scheme - he had a small force and if Yang was going to trap him, there'd be very little he could do to get out of it, so he deliberately went ahead to change the situation within the limits of his abilities. Part of being a subordinate is knowing your place and the limits of your capabilities. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 13:16, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Well, even as subordinates, had they been in this situation, Yang or Reinhard would have been able to not only get out of a trap, but likely make the bigger fleet look foolish. But thats what legends do, I suppose: something legendary. ^^ [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
::Exactly so :) [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 10:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Picture of the Battle==<br />
<br />
Actually, speaking purely from personal artistic preference, what about instead of the Thor hammer firing from that angle, it was instead either Wahlen's fleet approaching Iserlohn (the shot where the battleship does a flyby of the camera such as the first 4 seconds from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgGP5TuMYdM ), or perhaps Wagenseil's fleet with the circular glow of the Thor Hammer shot behind them about to hit them? Or perhaps when Julian counterattacks against Wagenseil and all those Imperial ships are exploding or pointing in different directions? There is also the shot of Wahlen's ships getting cored by Merkatz's flank attack. Just thinking of dramatic ship images for the battle.<br />
<br />
[[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:32, 31 May 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:Eleventh_Battle_of_IserlohnTalk:Eleventh Battle of Iserlohn2021-05-31T12:44:56Z<p>Iracundus: /* Picture of the Battle */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Casualties==<br />
<br />
Now personally I find this battle the most well animated out of all the battles in the series from a technical point of view, with no re-use of previous footage, and those nice close side fly-by shots of the Imperial and Alliance ships. <br />
<br />
However the casualty count for the Imperials seems awfully low considering there were 3 firings of the Thor Hammer even if the final one was at reduced power, and considering the damage to the Wahlen Fleet was supposed to be significant enough that it did not participate in the Battle of Shiva. Within this episode between the actual fleet battle and then the Imperial ships being blown away by the Thor Hammer, I think a visual count of destroyed ships would show a not entirely insignificant number of that 400,000. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 07:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Given the show's very consistent ~120 men per ship casualty rate, it works out as over 3,000 ships destroyed - or over 1,000 ships per Thor Hammer blast assuming equal power shots. However shouldn't focus just on destroyed ships, but also damaged ships - we seen that even after the weapon has fired, there are ships that have suffered damage. Its possible that though the Wahlen Fleet did not suffer huge numbers of ship losses, the damage to surviving ships might be enough to render its combat capability substantially reduced. 100% agree on this being the best looking battle of the series technically speaking - it was a refreshing change of the very ugly looking Second Battle of Rantemario (Episode 96). Was the B team animating that, becuase everything about it just looks ... wrong. The ships are misshapen and rounded. Curiously it was rectified immediately after in Episode 97. A close second for me in terms of animation is Battle of Marr-Adetta, it looks great. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 07:36, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Personal speculation is that maybe they had cash flow issues and had to re-use a lot of stuff for 2nd Rantemario though your idea of it being perhaps another team might also be the case (subcontracting is common in anime production). On the original topic however, we do see the Wahlen Fleet have literal holes blown in its formation. Any ships caught squarely in those blasts would have been completely wiped out, inflicting the total crew number in casualties. Now ships on the outskirts might have suffered damage and have casualties on board without total ship destruction, but if only roughly 1,000 ships are destroyed per Thor Hammer shot and Wahlen had over 13,000 ships (remember he had over double Julian's main fleet), that would still leave 11,000 ships. Now knock off another 2,000 as damaged and not fit for combat, that still leaves 9,000. Given the Iserlohn fleet at the Battle of Shiva was 9,800 in total, a 9,000 strong Wahlen Fleet should still be capable of participating in battle. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 09:05, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Given the standard fleet size for a High Admiral in the Goldenlöwe dynasty was 15,000 - 15,900 ships (explicit numbers for Mecklinger, Fahrenheit, Eisenach and Black Lancers all falling in that range) I'm almost certain that Wahlen would've had at least 15,000 ships too. Perhaps even though damaged Wahlen alone would've had more than Julian, the damage inflicted meant that Wahlen's fleet would not be operating at peak efficiency - i.e. Reinhard would rather have Wahlen's fleet resting and recovering than committing it to battle and having it cop more casualties than it normally would because of its damaged, less numerous state. Another interesting thing about the Goldenlöwe Dynasty is that those with high ranks generally commanded less ships than during their counterparts in the Goldebaum dynasty - e.g. where a Vice Admiral of the Goldenbaums would command at least 10,000 ships, full Admirals of the Goldenlöwe would command 6,000 - 8,500. Same with High Admirals - Reinhard and Mittermeyer both had confirmed fleets of 20,000 ships each in the Goldenbaum period. This could signify a reduction in overall fleet strength in recognition of the changing times, given that the Free Planets Alliance's massive fleet had long since ceased to exist. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 10:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::There was significant rank inflation by the end, especially if all the remaining High Admirals were promoted to Fleet Admirals upon Reinhard's death. Also the massive and frequent battles during Reinhard's time, including the 2 civil wars that afflicted the Empire, would have led to attrition of the total Imperial fleet numbers by the end. Previously, the Alliance and Goldenbaum dynasty were just sparring, with one side retreating after a battle and the other side not truly following up the victory with pursuit and annihilation of the enemy. Both sides were really just fighting to win battles, and not really the war. Even victorious, I would think the total rate of Imperial ship losses during Reinhard's period would have outstripped production. Reinhard's fleet in the Battle of Shiva was half that during the Battle of the Corridor, and only a little larger even when one accounts for the non-participating Imperial fleets. <br />
<br />
::::Of all fleets, I would think the Black Lancers too would have been the most understrength or at risk of becoming a hodgepodge fleet with half of them really being Fahrenheit's old fleet, with standard battleships instead of fast battleships. The Black Lancers were mauled by Yang in the Corridor, absorbed Fahrenheit's fleet, then again took presumably heavy casualties at the Second Battle of Rantemario. Either the Black Lancers were taking all new fast battleship production (or taking in existing ones from other fleets) or their core force of fast battleships would have shrunken by the time of the Battle of Shiva. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::Yeah, especially where the expense of the repeated military expeditions is explicitly highlighted late in the series. As for the Black Lancers specifically, I thought after 2nd Rantemario they were pretty much back to how they were - I thought the battle served to bind the former Fahrenheit to Bittenfeld through his sheer force of personality. Its notable that there's no mention of any dissension or malingering in the Black Lancer ranks when Bittenfeld was arrested - they all almost turned to violence in unison for Bittenfeld. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:19, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::The expenses were probably starting to tell, accounting for Oberstein's opposition to further expeditions. He was always loyal to the idea of the Empire even above and beyond the individual Kaiser, and quite rightly criticized further expeditions on the basis that Reinhard's personal ideas of honour and desire for fighting was treating the assets of the Empire as his own personal rivate assets. Reinhard's treasury had been replenished by the confiscated assets of the high nobles, but repeated expeditions would surely have drained that. The proposed plan for building 2 fortresses on either end of the Fezzan Corridor would also have been further massive military spending (if they ever actually were built). Reinhard's "burn rate" of ships, personnel, and money probably exceeded the Goldenbaum dynasty period, and was sustainable only because it was a short period.<br />
<br />
::::::Regarding the Black Lancers, I was actually more referring to their equipment. In 2nd Rantemario, we still see Fahrenheit's forces with black painted standard battleships, whereas the original Black Lancers are using their fast battleships, showing that the supply of fast battleships isn't sufficient to re-equip the entirety of the old Fahrenheit fleet. The power of the Black Lancers lay in their concentration of fast battleships into one force, allowing them to shatter enemies like ancient cavalry charges or armoured spearheads. Having part of their strength be in slower standard battleships would have been like mixing infantry in with the cavalry, diluting the original fast shock force concept. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::: I think construction had begun on the fortress before the series was finished, overseen by Mittermeyer. As to the Black Lancers, in addition to their equipment, IIRC they were considered elite troops. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 13:52, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Animation==<br />
Oh yeah, I forgot - for all this battle's excellence in presentation and animation quality, the pet peeve I have is the few bizarre lighting issues. The ''Valendown'' is shrouded in shadow the only time we get a good look at her, and this odd ... "bug" is very prominent immediately when a Fast Battleship is struck by a pair of beams - perfectly visible prior, on impact the whole ship promptly goes black. Huh? [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes I noticed the same with the fast battleship. It doesn't make sense but I suppose they were trying to go for something where the debris is lit only by the hot gas and debris of the explosion. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:18, 3 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==What the Imperials should have done==<br />
<br />
Wagenseil's fleet should have pushed on regardless instead of turning away (or turned back again after seeing Wahlen on the other side). It would have taken heavy damage but it would have forced Julian to make the difficult choice of either facing them and leaving Wahlen to advance unchecked, or leaving Iserlohn open to Wagenseil if Julian moved to block Wahlen. The logical choice for Julian would have still been to block Wahlen's larger force, but even so Wahlen was grinding them down. The Thor Hammer would have likely therefore been engaging Wahlen, leaving Wagenseil a clear shot at assaulting the fortress. Though Wahlen would have taken heavier losses by pressing on and taking the Thor Hammer hits, he might have stood a chance of breaking through the thinner Iserlohn forces, and then Wahlen and Wagenseil combined might have had enough to overwhelm Iserlohn's small garrison through numbers. Now it is possible Wagenseil would still have been defeated by Iserlohn's smaller floating gun turrets but the outcome would have been more in doubt than what actually happened. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:58, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Also, as the higher officers noted, if Wagenseil had been paying attention, he would've seen Merkatz's detachment too - this may have allowed him to reorganize his formation and close with the fortress before the Thor Hammer could finish coming around. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:43, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::And if Yang had simply fired at the Brunhilde at the end of the Battle of Vermillion rather than taking in nonsensical orders that pretty much his entire fleet disagreed with, he'd have likely lived longer than he did by not firing. But that would also have ended the story. Same thing here: had Julian been forced out of Iserlohn, he'd have had to surrender shortly thereafter. That would also have cut the story short. Sometimes, for the story to go on, one side is meant to win. ^_^ [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
:::This was one of those battles, like the Battle of Shiva, that evolved out of a skirmish, and which was unplanned (at least for the Imperials). It showed the mediocrity of the following generation of Imperial admirals. I think Wagenseil, like Thurneysen, was an example of the later generation hungry to earn some glory and rank before the era of war ended, leading them to take risks and aggressive actions that bring them to grief. Wagenseil's position was simply to guard the exit of the Corridor. He could have not pursued when Julian disengaged, but he got greedy. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 20:37, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::I think the quality of Imperial admirals in the following generation was "uneven" at best. Thurneysen was foolish, and Wagenseil was a mediocrity, but on the other hand Brauhitch was a solid performer (survivor of Vermilion, opened the way at the Corridor) - as were Mittermeyer's men - Bayerlein, Droisen, Sinzer and Bülow. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 23:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Oh, and don't forget Holzbauer of the Lutz Fleet (smashed Knappstein) or the guy (whose name escapes me atm) who shielded Reuenthal's withdrawal at Second Rantemario. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 05:18, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::The 'What if?' factor of LoGH has always been interesting. Going all the way back to Astarte, where the question arises that if Jean Robert Lap had survived, would things be different? Assuming Yang was right when he called Lap his equal, how would the Empire have faired against another Yang-like shrewd officer, even if he hadn't reached Yang's level of fame and influence? In any event, the later Imperial admirals seem to demonstrate the overall issues inherent with creating a competent body of officers. Reinhard succeeded initially because he picked the cream of the crop; the poor officers simply soldiered on in other admiralties until their demise and were of no concern. Reinhard could no longer do it once he was responsible for the entire military though. He had the whole gamut, and nowhere to dump the incompetent ones unless he could prove they were incompetent, although he tried to give them less important commands. Reinhard couldn't let the rest of the Imperial military simply die as he had when he was only responsible for part of it. 06:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::I have never really considered Bayerlein, Droisen, Sinzer and Bülow that great. Bayerlein was always getting himself into trouble and needing to be saved. The others due to their hot-headedness created openings for the enemy, such as their chaotic rush for the apparently retreating Iserlohn forces as the Battle of Shiva (which of course turned out to be a feint). They may be competent but their rashness keeps them from being great. Partly I ascribe that to youth, partly to their character, and partly due to their circumstances. They have seen the examples of Reinhard, Kircheis, Mittermeyer, Reuenthal, etc. spring up the ranks due to their performance in war, and were trying to emulate their examples and advance their careers. This same desire for career advancement is what led Grillparzer and Knappstein to their little scheme to side with then betray Reuenthal. <br />
<br />
::::::As leader of the whole military, Reinhard had to give the image of impartiality and give opportunities to people to achieve glory in battle. That's one reason why Kempff was chosen instead of Mittermeyer or Reuenthal to do the fortress battle, and why Sombart was chosen for securing the supply line. Reinhard couldn't be seen to be giving jobs only to the same people over and over again, else he would appear to be engaging in favoritism, which could breed resentment. By giving the opportunity for people to succeed, he had to also give them the opportunity to fail. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:47, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::::Bayerlein, during the Battle of the Corridor, stated, when it seemed clear that he was playing right into Yang's hands, that if he got into trouble, that Mittermeyer would get him out if worst came to worst. He wasn't thinking of a strategy if in a pinch. He was relying on his superior to do it FOR him. So, no, Bayerlein wasn't that great, I agree. Certainly not upper tier. [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
Note, saying someone is "solid" is nowhere near the same as saying they're great or upper tier (that is the province of Reinhard's High Admirals and above). They're competent and don't make glaring errors, nothing more. There's a differnece between getting legitimately outfought by your betters (i.e. Bayerlein vs Yang or Reuenthal) and making a thorough ass of yourself. As for Bayerlein in the Corridor, he knew his place in the grand scheme - he had a small force and if Yang was going to trap him, there'd be very little he could do to get out of it, so he deliberately went ahead to change the situation within the limits of his abilities. Part of being a subordinate is knowing your place and the limits of your capabilities. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 13:16, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Well, even as subordinates, had they been in this situation, Yang or Reinhard would have been able to not only get out of a trap, but likely make the bigger fleet look foolish. But thats what legends do, I suppose: something legendary. ^^ [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
::Exactly so :) [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 10:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Picture of the Battle==<br />
<br />
Actually, speaking purely from personal artistic preference, what about instead of the Thor hammer firing from that angle, it was instead either Wahlen's fleet approaching Iserlohn (the shot where the battleship does a flyby of the camera such as the first 4 seconds from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgGP5TuMYdM ), or perhaps Wagenseil's fleet with the circular glow of the Thor Hammer shot behind them about to hit them? Or perhaps when Julian counterattacks against Wagenseil and all those Imperial ships are exploding or pointing in different directions? Just thinking of dramatic cover images for the battle.<br />
<br />
[[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:32, 31 May 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:Eleventh_Battle_of_IserlohnTalk:Eleventh Battle of Iserlohn2021-05-31T10:49:20Z<p>Iracundus: /* Picture of the Battle */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Casualties==<br />
<br />
Now personally I find this battle the most well animated out of all the battles in the series from a technical point of view, with no re-use of previous footage, and those nice close side fly-by shots of the Imperial and Alliance ships. <br />
<br />
However the casualty count for the Imperials seems awfully low considering there were 3 firings of the Thor Hammer even if the final one was at reduced power, and considering the damage to the Wahlen Fleet was supposed to be significant enough that it did not participate in the Battle of Shiva. Within this episode between the actual fleet battle and then the Imperial ships being blown away by the Thor Hammer, I think a visual count of destroyed ships would show a not entirely insignificant number of that 400,000. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 07:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Given the show's very consistent ~120 men per ship casualty rate, it works out as over 3,000 ships destroyed - or over 1,000 ships per Thor Hammer blast assuming equal power shots. However shouldn't focus just on destroyed ships, but also damaged ships - we seen that even after the weapon has fired, there are ships that have suffered damage. Its possible that though the Wahlen Fleet did not suffer huge numbers of ship losses, the damage to surviving ships might be enough to render its combat capability substantially reduced. 100% agree on this being the best looking battle of the series technically speaking - it was a refreshing change of the very ugly looking Second Battle of Rantemario (Episode 96). Was the B team animating that, becuase everything about it just looks ... wrong. The ships are misshapen and rounded. Curiously it was rectified immediately after in Episode 97. A close second for me in terms of animation is Battle of Marr-Adetta, it looks great. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 07:36, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Personal speculation is that maybe they had cash flow issues and had to re-use a lot of stuff for 2nd Rantemario though your idea of it being perhaps another team might also be the case (subcontracting is common in anime production). On the original topic however, we do see the Wahlen Fleet have literal holes blown in its formation. Any ships caught squarely in those blasts would have been completely wiped out, inflicting the total crew number in casualties. Now ships on the outskirts might have suffered damage and have casualties on board without total ship destruction, but if only roughly 1,000 ships are destroyed per Thor Hammer shot and Wahlen had over 13,000 ships (remember he had over double Julian's main fleet), that would still leave 11,000 ships. Now knock off another 2,000 as damaged and not fit for combat, that still leaves 9,000. Given the Iserlohn fleet at the Battle of Shiva was 9,800 in total, a 9,000 strong Wahlen Fleet should still be capable of participating in battle. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 09:05, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Given the standard fleet size for a High Admiral in the Goldenlöwe dynasty was 15,000 - 15,900 ships (explicit numbers for Mecklinger, Fahrenheit, Eisenach and Black Lancers all falling in that range) I'm almost certain that Wahlen would've had at least 15,000 ships too. Perhaps even though damaged Wahlen alone would've had more than Julian, the damage inflicted meant that Wahlen's fleet would not be operating at peak efficiency - i.e. Reinhard would rather have Wahlen's fleet resting and recovering than committing it to battle and having it cop more casualties than it normally would because of its damaged, less numerous state. Another interesting thing about the Goldenlöwe Dynasty is that those with high ranks generally commanded less ships than during their counterparts in the Goldebaum dynasty - e.g. where a Vice Admiral of the Goldenbaums would command at least 10,000 ships, full Admirals of the Goldenlöwe would command 6,000 - 8,500. Same with High Admirals - Reinhard and Mittermeyer both had confirmed fleets of 20,000 ships each in the Goldenbaum period. This could signify a reduction in overall fleet strength in recognition of the changing times, given that the Free Planets Alliance's massive fleet had long since ceased to exist. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 10:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::There was significant rank inflation by the end, especially if all the remaining High Admirals were promoted to Fleet Admirals upon Reinhard's death. Also the massive and frequent battles during Reinhard's time, including the 2 civil wars that afflicted the Empire, would have led to attrition of the total Imperial fleet numbers by the end. Previously, the Alliance and Goldenbaum dynasty were just sparring, with one side retreating after a battle and the other side not truly following up the victory with pursuit and annihilation of the enemy. Both sides were really just fighting to win battles, and not really the war. Even victorious, I would think the total rate of Imperial ship losses during Reinhard's period would have outstripped production. Reinhard's fleet in the Battle of Shiva was half that during the Battle of the Corridor, and only a little larger even when one accounts for the non-participating Imperial fleets. <br />
<br />
::::Of all fleets, I would think the Black Lancers too would have been the most understrength or at risk of becoming a hodgepodge fleet with half of them really being Fahrenheit's old fleet, with standard battleships instead of fast battleships. The Black Lancers were mauled by Yang in the Corridor, absorbed Fahrenheit's fleet, then again took presumably heavy casualties at the Second Battle of Rantemario. Either the Black Lancers were taking all new fast battleship production (or taking in existing ones from other fleets) or their core force of fast battleships would have shrunken by the time of the Battle of Shiva. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::Yeah, especially where the expense of the repeated military expeditions is explicitly highlighted late in the series. As for the Black Lancers specifically, I thought after 2nd Rantemario they were pretty much back to how they were - I thought the battle served to bind the former Fahrenheit to Bittenfeld through his sheer force of personality. Its notable that there's no mention of any dissension or malingering in the Black Lancer ranks when Bittenfeld was arrested - they all almost turned to violence in unison for Bittenfeld. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:19, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::The expenses were probably starting to tell, accounting for Oberstein's opposition to further expeditions. He was always loyal to the idea of the Empire even above and beyond the individual Kaiser, and quite rightly criticized further expeditions on the basis that Reinhard's personal ideas of honour and desire for fighting was treating the assets of the Empire as his own personal rivate assets. Reinhard's treasury had been replenished by the confiscated assets of the high nobles, but repeated expeditions would surely have drained that. The proposed plan for building 2 fortresses on either end of the Fezzan Corridor would also have been further massive military spending (if they ever actually were built). Reinhard's "burn rate" of ships, personnel, and money probably exceeded the Goldenbaum dynasty period, and was sustainable only because it was a short period.<br />
<br />
::::::Regarding the Black Lancers, I was actually more referring to their equipment. In 2nd Rantemario, we still see Fahrenheit's forces with black painted standard battleships, whereas the original Black Lancers are using their fast battleships, showing that the supply of fast battleships isn't sufficient to re-equip the entirety of the old Fahrenheit fleet. The power of the Black Lancers lay in their concentration of fast battleships into one force, allowing them to shatter enemies like ancient cavalry charges or armoured spearheads. Having part of their strength be in slower standard battleships would have been like mixing infantry in with the cavalry, diluting the original fast shock force concept. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::: I think construction had begun on the fortress before the series was finished, overseen by Mittermeyer. As to the Black Lancers, in addition to their equipment, IIRC they were considered elite troops. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 13:52, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Animation==<br />
Oh yeah, I forgot - for all this battle's excellence in presentation and animation quality, the pet peeve I have is the few bizarre lighting issues. The ''Valendown'' is shrouded in shadow the only time we get a good look at her, and this odd ... "bug" is very prominent immediately when a Fast Battleship is struck by a pair of beams - perfectly visible prior, on impact the whole ship promptly goes black. Huh? [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes I noticed the same with the fast battleship. It doesn't make sense but I suppose they were trying to go for something where the debris is lit only by the hot gas and debris of the explosion. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:18, 3 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==What the Imperials should have done==<br />
<br />
Wagenseil's fleet should have pushed on regardless instead of turning away (or turned back again after seeing Wahlen on the other side). It would have taken heavy damage but it would have forced Julian to make the difficult choice of either facing them and leaving Wahlen to advance unchecked, or leaving Iserlohn open to Wagenseil if Julian moved to block Wahlen. The logical choice for Julian would have still been to block Wahlen's larger force, but even so Wahlen was grinding them down. The Thor Hammer would have likely therefore been engaging Wahlen, leaving Wagenseil a clear shot at assaulting the fortress. Though Wahlen would have taken heavier losses by pressing on and taking the Thor Hammer hits, he might have stood a chance of breaking through the thinner Iserlohn forces, and then Wahlen and Wagenseil combined might have had enough to overwhelm Iserlohn's small garrison through numbers. Now it is possible Wagenseil would still have been defeated by Iserlohn's smaller floating gun turrets but the outcome would have been more in doubt than what actually happened. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:58, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Also, as the higher officers noted, if Wagenseil had been paying attention, he would've seen Merkatz's detachment too - this may have allowed him to reorganize his formation and close with the fortress before the Thor Hammer could finish coming around. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:43, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::And if Yang had simply fired at the Brunhilde at the end of the Battle of Vermillion rather than taking in nonsensical orders that pretty much his entire fleet disagreed with, he'd have likely lived longer than he did by not firing. But that would also have ended the story. Same thing here: had Julian been forced out of Iserlohn, he'd have had to surrender shortly thereafter. That would also have cut the story short. Sometimes, for the story to go on, one side is meant to win. ^_^ [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
:::This was one of those battles, like the Battle of Shiva, that evolved out of a skirmish, and which was unplanned (at least for the Imperials). It showed the mediocrity of the following generation of Imperial admirals. I think Wagenseil, like Thurneysen, was an example of the later generation hungry to earn some glory and rank before the era of war ended, leading them to take risks and aggressive actions that bring them to grief. Wagenseil's position was simply to guard the exit of the Corridor. He could have not pursued when Julian disengaged, but he got greedy. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 20:37, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::I think the quality of Imperial admirals in the following generation was "uneven" at best. Thurneysen was foolish, and Wagenseil was a mediocrity, but on the other hand Brauhitch was a solid performer (survivor of Vermilion, opened the way at the Corridor) - as were Mittermeyer's men - Bayerlein, Droisen, Sinzer and Bülow. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 23:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Oh, and don't forget Holzbauer of the Lutz Fleet (smashed Knappstein) or the guy (whose name escapes me atm) who shielded Reuenthal's withdrawal at Second Rantemario. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 05:18, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::The 'What if?' factor of LoGH has always been interesting. Going all the way back to Astarte, where the question arises that if Jean Robert Lap had survived, would things be different? Assuming Yang was right when he called Lap his equal, how would the Empire have faired against another Yang-like shrewd officer, even if he hadn't reached Yang's level of fame and influence? In any event, the later Imperial admirals seem to demonstrate the overall issues inherent with creating a competent body of officers. Reinhard succeeded initially because he picked the cream of the crop; the poor officers simply soldiered on in other admiralties until their demise and were of no concern. Reinhard could no longer do it once he was responsible for the entire military though. He had the whole gamut, and nowhere to dump the incompetent ones unless he could prove they were incompetent, although he tried to give them less important commands. Reinhard couldn't let the rest of the Imperial military simply die as he had when he was only responsible for part of it. 06:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::I have never really considered Bayerlein, Droisen, Sinzer and Bülow that great. Bayerlein was always getting himself into trouble and needing to be saved. The others due to their hot-headedness created openings for the enemy, such as their chaotic rush for the apparently retreating Iserlohn forces as the Battle of Shiva (which of course turned out to be a feint). They may be competent but their rashness keeps them from being great. Partly I ascribe that to youth, partly to their character, and partly due to their circumstances. They have seen the examples of Reinhard, Kircheis, Mittermeyer, Reuenthal, etc. spring up the ranks due to their performance in war, and were trying to emulate their examples and advance their careers. This same desire for career advancement is what led Grillparzer and Knappstein to their little scheme to side with then betray Reuenthal. <br />
<br />
::::::As leader of the whole military, Reinhard had to give the image of impartiality and give opportunities to people to achieve glory in battle. That's one reason why Kempff was chosen instead of Mittermeyer or Reuenthal to do the fortress battle, and why Sombart was chosen for securing the supply line. Reinhard couldn't be seen to be giving jobs only to the same people over and over again, else he would appear to be engaging in favoritism, which could breed resentment. By giving the opportunity for people to succeed, he had to also give them the opportunity to fail. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:47, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::::Bayerlein, during the Battle of the Corridor, stated, when it seemed clear that he was playing right into Yang's hands, that if he got into trouble, that Mittermeyer would get him out if worst came to worst. He wasn't thinking of a strategy if in a pinch. He was relying on his superior to do it FOR him. So, no, Bayerlein wasn't that great, I agree. Certainly not upper tier. [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
Note, saying someone is "solid" is nowhere near the same as saying they're great or upper tier (that is the province of Reinhard's High Admirals and above). They're competent and don't make glaring errors, nothing more. There's a differnece between getting legitimately outfought by your betters (i.e. Bayerlein vs Yang or Reuenthal) and making a thorough ass of yourself. As for Bayerlein in the Corridor, he knew his place in the grand scheme - he had a small force and if Yang was going to trap him, there'd be very little he could do to get out of it, so he deliberately went ahead to change the situation within the limits of his abilities. Part of being a subordinate is knowing your place and the limits of your capabilities. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 13:16, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Well, even as subordinates, had they been in this situation, Yang or Reinhard would have been able to not only get out of a trap, but likely make the bigger fleet look foolish. But thats what legends do, I suppose: something legendary. ^^ [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
::Exactly so :) [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 10:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Picture of the Battle==<br />
<br />
Actually, speaking purely from personal artistic preference, what about instead of the Thor hammer firing from that angle, it was instead either Wahlen's fleet approaching Iserlohn (the shot where the battleship does a flyby of the camera such as the first 4 seconds from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgGP5TuMYdM ), or perhaps Wagenseil's fleet with the circular glow of the Thor Hammer shot behind them about to hit them? Or perhaps when Julian counterattacks against Wagenseil and sends his ships into disarray? Just thinking of dramatic cover images for the battle.<br />
<br />
[[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:32, 31 May 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:Eleventh_Battle_of_IserlohnTalk:Eleventh Battle of Iserlohn2021-05-31T10:39:16Z<p>Iracundus: /* Picture of the Battle */</p>
<hr />
<div>==Casualties==<br />
<br />
Now personally I find this battle the most well animated out of all the battles in the series from a technical point of view, with no re-use of previous footage, and those nice close side fly-by shots of the Imperial and Alliance ships. <br />
<br />
However the casualty count for the Imperials seems awfully low considering there were 3 firings of the Thor Hammer even if the final one was at reduced power, and considering the damage to the Wahlen Fleet was supposed to be significant enough that it did not participate in the Battle of Shiva. Within this episode between the actual fleet battle and then the Imperial ships being blown away by the Thor Hammer, I think a visual count of destroyed ships would show a not entirely insignificant number of that 400,000. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 07:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Given the show's very consistent ~120 men per ship casualty rate, it works out as over 3,000 ships destroyed - or over 1,000 ships per Thor Hammer blast assuming equal power shots. However shouldn't focus just on destroyed ships, but also damaged ships - we seen that even after the weapon has fired, there are ships that have suffered damage. Its possible that though the Wahlen Fleet did not suffer huge numbers of ship losses, the damage to surviving ships might be enough to render its combat capability substantially reduced. 100% agree on this being the best looking battle of the series technically speaking - it was a refreshing change of the very ugly looking Second Battle of Rantemario (Episode 96). Was the B team animating that, becuase everything about it just looks ... wrong. The ships are misshapen and rounded. Curiously it was rectified immediately after in Episode 97. A close second for me in terms of animation is Battle of Marr-Adetta, it looks great. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 07:36, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Personal speculation is that maybe they had cash flow issues and had to re-use a lot of stuff for 2nd Rantemario though your idea of it being perhaps another team might also be the case (subcontracting is common in anime production). On the original topic however, we do see the Wahlen Fleet have literal holes blown in its formation. Any ships caught squarely in those blasts would have been completely wiped out, inflicting the total crew number in casualties. Now ships on the outskirts might have suffered damage and have casualties on board without total ship destruction, but if only roughly 1,000 ships are destroyed per Thor Hammer shot and Wahlen had over 13,000 ships (remember he had over double Julian's main fleet), that would still leave 11,000 ships. Now knock off another 2,000 as damaged and not fit for combat, that still leaves 9,000. Given the Iserlohn fleet at the Battle of Shiva was 9,800 in total, a 9,000 strong Wahlen Fleet should still be capable of participating in battle. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 09:05, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Given the standard fleet size for a High Admiral in the Goldenlöwe dynasty was 15,000 - 15,900 ships (explicit numbers for Mecklinger, Fahrenheit, Eisenach and Black Lancers all falling in that range) I'm almost certain that Wahlen would've had at least 15,000 ships too. Perhaps even though damaged Wahlen alone would've had more than Julian, the damage inflicted meant that Wahlen's fleet would not be operating at peak efficiency - i.e. Reinhard would rather have Wahlen's fleet resting and recovering than committing it to battle and having it cop more casualties than it normally would because of its damaged, less numerous state. Another interesting thing about the Goldenlöwe Dynasty is that those with high ranks generally commanded less ships than during their counterparts in the Goldebaum dynasty - e.g. where a Vice Admiral of the Goldenbaums would command at least 10,000 ships, full Admirals of the Goldenlöwe would command 6,000 - 8,500. Same with High Admirals - Reinhard and Mittermeyer both had confirmed fleets of 20,000 ships each in the Goldenbaum period. This could signify a reduction in overall fleet strength in recognition of the changing times, given that the Free Planets Alliance's massive fleet had long since ceased to exist. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 10:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::There was significant rank inflation by the end, especially if all the remaining High Admirals were promoted to Fleet Admirals upon Reinhard's death. Also the massive and frequent battles during Reinhard's time, including the 2 civil wars that afflicted the Empire, would have led to attrition of the total Imperial fleet numbers by the end. Previously, the Alliance and Goldenbaum dynasty were just sparring, with one side retreating after a battle and the other side not truly following up the victory with pursuit and annihilation of the enemy. Both sides were really just fighting to win battles, and not really the war. Even victorious, I would think the total rate of Imperial ship losses during Reinhard's period would have outstripped production. Reinhard's fleet in the Battle of Shiva was half that during the Battle of the Corridor, and only a little larger even when one accounts for the non-participating Imperial fleets. <br />
<br />
::::Of all fleets, I would think the Black Lancers too would have been the most understrength or at risk of becoming a hodgepodge fleet with half of them really being Fahrenheit's old fleet, with standard battleships instead of fast battleships. The Black Lancers were mauled by Yang in the Corridor, absorbed Fahrenheit's fleet, then again took presumably heavy casualties at the Second Battle of Rantemario. Either the Black Lancers were taking all new fast battleship production (or taking in existing ones from other fleets) or their core force of fast battleships would have shrunken by the time of the Battle of Shiva. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::Yeah, especially where the expense of the repeated military expeditions is explicitly highlighted late in the series. As for the Black Lancers specifically, I thought after 2nd Rantemario they were pretty much back to how they were - I thought the battle served to bind the former Fahrenheit to Bittenfeld through his sheer force of personality. Its notable that there's no mention of any dissension or malingering in the Black Lancer ranks when Bittenfeld was arrested - they all almost turned to violence in unison for Bittenfeld. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:19, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::The expenses were probably starting to tell, accounting for Oberstein's opposition to further expeditions. He was always loyal to the idea of the Empire even above and beyond the individual Kaiser, and quite rightly criticized further expeditions on the basis that Reinhard's personal ideas of honour and desire for fighting was treating the assets of the Empire as his own personal rivate assets. Reinhard's treasury had been replenished by the confiscated assets of the high nobles, but repeated expeditions would surely have drained that. The proposed plan for building 2 fortresses on either end of the Fezzan Corridor would also have been further massive military spending (if they ever actually were built). Reinhard's "burn rate" of ships, personnel, and money probably exceeded the Goldenbaum dynasty period, and was sustainable only because it was a short period.<br />
<br />
::::::Regarding the Black Lancers, I was actually more referring to their equipment. In 2nd Rantemario, we still see Fahrenheit's forces with black painted standard battleships, whereas the original Black Lancers are using their fast battleships, showing that the supply of fast battleships isn't sufficient to re-equip the entirety of the old Fahrenheit fleet. The power of the Black Lancers lay in their concentration of fast battleships into one force, allowing them to shatter enemies like ancient cavalry charges or armoured spearheads. Having part of their strength be in slower standard battleships would have been like mixing infantry in with the cavalry, diluting the original fast shock force concept. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::: I think construction had begun on the fortress before the series was finished, overseen by Mittermeyer. As to the Black Lancers, in addition to their equipment, IIRC they were considered elite troops. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 13:52, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Animation==<br />
Oh yeah, I forgot - for all this battle's excellence in presentation and animation quality, the pet peeve I have is the few bizarre lighting issues. The ''Valendown'' is shrouded in shadow the only time we get a good look at her, and this odd ... "bug" is very prominent immediately when a Fast Battleship is struck by a pair of beams - perfectly visible prior, on impact the whole ship promptly goes black. Huh? [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes I noticed the same with the fast battleship. It doesn't make sense but I suppose they were trying to go for something where the debris is lit only by the hot gas and debris of the explosion. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:18, 3 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==What the Imperials should have done==<br />
<br />
Wagenseil's fleet should have pushed on regardless instead of turning away (or turned back again after seeing Wahlen on the other side). It would have taken heavy damage but it would have forced Julian to make the difficult choice of either facing them and leaving Wahlen to advance unchecked, or leaving Iserlohn open to Wagenseil if Julian moved to block Wahlen. The logical choice for Julian would have still been to block Wahlen's larger force, but even so Wahlen was grinding them down. The Thor Hammer would have likely therefore been engaging Wahlen, leaving Wagenseil a clear shot at assaulting the fortress. Though Wahlen would have taken heavier losses by pressing on and taking the Thor Hammer hits, he might have stood a chance of breaking through the thinner Iserlohn forces, and then Wahlen and Wagenseil combined might have had enough to overwhelm Iserlohn's small garrison through numbers. Now it is possible Wagenseil would still have been defeated by Iserlohn's smaller floating gun turrets but the outcome would have been more in doubt than what actually happened. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:58, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Also, as the higher officers noted, if Wagenseil had been paying attention, he would've seen Merkatz's detachment too - this may have allowed him to reorganize his formation and close with the fortress before the Thor Hammer could finish coming around. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:43, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::And if Yang had simply fired at the Brunhilde at the end of the Battle of Vermillion rather than taking in nonsensical orders that pretty much his entire fleet disagreed with, he'd have likely lived longer than he did by not firing. But that would also have ended the story. Same thing here: had Julian been forced out of Iserlohn, he'd have had to surrender shortly thereafter. That would also have cut the story short. Sometimes, for the story to go on, one side is meant to win. ^_^ [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
:::This was one of those battles, like the Battle of Shiva, that evolved out of a skirmish, and which was unplanned (at least for the Imperials). It showed the mediocrity of the following generation of Imperial admirals. I think Wagenseil, like Thurneysen, was an example of the later generation hungry to earn some glory and rank before the era of war ended, leading them to take risks and aggressive actions that bring them to grief. Wagenseil's position was simply to guard the exit of the Corridor. He could have not pursued when Julian disengaged, but he got greedy. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 20:37, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::I think the quality of Imperial admirals in the following generation was "uneven" at best. Thurneysen was foolish, and Wagenseil was a mediocrity, but on the other hand Brauhitch was a solid performer (survivor of Vermilion, opened the way at the Corridor) - as were Mittermeyer's men - Bayerlein, Droisen, Sinzer and Bülow. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 23:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Oh, and don't forget Holzbauer of the Lutz Fleet (smashed Knappstein) or the guy (whose name escapes me atm) who shielded Reuenthal's withdrawal at Second Rantemario. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 05:18, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::The 'What if?' factor of LoGH has always been interesting. Going all the way back to Astarte, where the question arises that if Jean Robert Lap had survived, would things be different? Assuming Yang was right when he called Lap his equal, how would the Empire have faired against another Yang-like shrewd officer, even if he hadn't reached Yang's level of fame and influence? In any event, the later Imperial admirals seem to demonstrate the overall issues inherent with creating a competent body of officers. Reinhard succeeded initially because he picked the cream of the crop; the poor officers simply soldiered on in other admiralties until their demise and were of no concern. Reinhard could no longer do it once he was responsible for the entire military though. He had the whole gamut, and nowhere to dump the incompetent ones unless he could prove they were incompetent, although he tried to give them less important commands. Reinhard couldn't let the rest of the Imperial military simply die as he had when he was only responsible for part of it. 06:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::I have never really considered Bayerlein, Droisen, Sinzer and Bülow that great. Bayerlein was always getting himself into trouble and needing to be saved. The others due to their hot-headedness created openings for the enemy, such as their chaotic rush for the apparently retreating Iserlohn forces as the Battle of Shiva (which of course turned out to be a feint). They may be competent but their rashness keeps them from being great. Partly I ascribe that to youth, partly to their character, and partly due to their circumstances. They have seen the examples of Reinhard, Kircheis, Mittermeyer, Reuenthal, etc. spring up the ranks due to their performance in war, and were trying to emulate their examples and advance their careers. This same desire for career advancement is what led Grillparzer and Knappstein to their little scheme to side with then betray Reuenthal. <br />
<br />
::::::As leader of the whole military, Reinhard had to give the image of impartiality and give opportunities to people to achieve glory in battle. That's one reason why Kempff was chosen instead of Mittermeyer or Reuenthal to do the fortress battle, and why Sombart was chosen for securing the supply line. Reinhard couldn't be seen to be giving jobs only to the same people over and over again, else he would appear to be engaging in favoritism, which could breed resentment. By giving the opportunity for people to succeed, he had to also give them the opportunity to fail. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:47, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::::Bayerlein, during the Battle of the Corridor, stated, when it seemed clear that he was playing right into Yang's hands, that if he got into trouble, that Mittermeyer would get him out if worst came to worst. He wasn't thinking of a strategy if in a pinch. He was relying on his superior to do it FOR him. So, no, Bayerlein wasn't that great, I agree. Certainly not upper tier. [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
Note, saying someone is "solid" is nowhere near the same as saying they're great or upper tier (that is the province of Reinhard's High Admirals and above). They're competent and don't make glaring errors, nothing more. There's a differnece between getting legitimately outfought by your betters (i.e. Bayerlein vs Yang or Reuenthal) and making a thorough ass of yourself. As for Bayerlein in the Corridor, he knew his place in the grand scheme - he had a small force and if Yang was going to trap him, there'd be very little he could do to get out of it, so he deliberately went ahead to change the situation within the limits of his abilities. Part of being a subordinate is knowing your place and the limits of your capabilities. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 13:16, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Well, even as subordinates, had they been in this situation, Yang or Reinhard would have been able to not only get out of a trap, but likely make the bigger fleet look foolish. But thats what legends do, I suppose: something legendary. ^^ [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
::Exactly so :) [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 10:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Picture of the Battle==<br />
<br />
Actually, speaking purely from personal artistic preference, what about instead of the Thor hammer firing from that angle, it was instead either Wahlen's fleet approaching Iserlohn (the shot where the battleship does a flyby of the camera such as the first 4 seconds from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgGP5TuMYdM ), or perhaps Wagenseil's fleet with the circular glow of the Thor Hammer shot behind them about to hit them? <br />
<br />
[[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:32, 31 May 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Talk:Eleventh_Battle_of_IserlohnTalk:Eleventh Battle of Iserlohn2021-05-31T10:32:15Z<p>Iracundus: </p>
<hr />
<div>==Casualties==<br />
<br />
Now personally I find this battle the most well animated out of all the battles in the series from a technical point of view, with no re-use of previous footage, and those nice close side fly-by shots of the Imperial and Alliance ships. <br />
<br />
However the casualty count for the Imperials seems awfully low considering there were 3 firings of the Thor Hammer even if the final one was at reduced power, and considering the damage to the Wahlen Fleet was supposed to be significant enough that it did not participate in the Battle of Shiva. Within this episode between the actual fleet battle and then the Imperial ships being blown away by the Thor Hammer, I think a visual count of destroyed ships would show a not entirely insignificant number of that 400,000. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 07:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Given the show's very consistent ~120 men per ship casualty rate, it works out as over 3,000 ships destroyed - or over 1,000 ships per Thor Hammer blast assuming equal power shots. However shouldn't focus just on destroyed ships, but also damaged ships - we seen that even after the weapon has fired, there are ships that have suffered damage. Its possible that though the Wahlen Fleet did not suffer huge numbers of ship losses, the damage to surviving ships might be enough to render its combat capability substantially reduced. 100% agree on this being the best looking battle of the series technically speaking - it was a refreshing change of the very ugly looking Second Battle of Rantemario (Episode 96). Was the B team animating that, becuase everything about it just looks ... wrong. The ships are misshapen and rounded. Curiously it was rectified immediately after in Episode 97. A close second for me in terms of animation is Battle of Marr-Adetta, it looks great. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 07:36, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::Personal speculation is that maybe they had cash flow issues and had to re-use a lot of stuff for 2nd Rantemario though your idea of it being perhaps another team might also be the case (subcontracting is common in anime production). On the original topic however, we do see the Wahlen Fleet have literal holes blown in its formation. Any ships caught squarely in those blasts would have been completely wiped out, inflicting the total crew number in casualties. Now ships on the outskirts might have suffered damage and have casualties on board without total ship destruction, but if only roughly 1,000 ships are destroyed per Thor Hammer shot and Wahlen had over 13,000 ships (remember he had over double Julian's main fleet), that would still leave 11,000 ships. Now knock off another 2,000 as damaged and not fit for combat, that still leaves 9,000. Given the Iserlohn fleet at the Battle of Shiva was 9,800 in total, a 9,000 strong Wahlen Fleet should still be capable of participating in battle. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 09:05, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::Given the standard fleet size for a High Admiral in the Goldenlöwe dynasty was 15,000 - 15,900 ships (explicit numbers for Mecklinger, Fahrenheit, Eisenach and Black Lancers all falling in that range) I'm almost certain that Wahlen would've had at least 15,000 ships too. Perhaps even though damaged Wahlen alone would've had more than Julian, the damage inflicted meant that Wahlen's fleet would not be operating at peak efficiency - i.e. Reinhard would rather have Wahlen's fleet resting and recovering than committing it to battle and having it cop more casualties than it normally would because of its damaged, less numerous state. Another interesting thing about the Goldenlöwe Dynasty is that those with high ranks generally commanded less ships than during their counterparts in the Goldebaum dynasty - e.g. where a Vice Admiral of the Goldenbaums would command at least 10,000 ships, full Admirals of the Goldenlöwe would command 6,000 - 8,500. Same with High Admirals - Reinhard and Mittermeyer both had confirmed fleets of 20,000 ships each in the Goldenbaum period. This could signify a reduction in overall fleet strength in recognition of the changing times, given that the Free Planets Alliance's massive fleet had long since ceased to exist. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 10:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::There was significant rank inflation by the end, especially if all the remaining High Admirals were promoted to Fleet Admirals upon Reinhard's death. Also the massive and frequent battles during Reinhard's time, including the 2 civil wars that afflicted the Empire, would have led to attrition of the total Imperial fleet numbers by the end. Previously, the Alliance and Goldenbaum dynasty were just sparring, with one side retreating after a battle and the other side not truly following up the victory with pursuit and annihilation of the enemy. Both sides were really just fighting to win battles, and not really the war. Even victorious, I would think the total rate of Imperial ship losses during Reinhard's period would have outstripped production. Reinhard's fleet in the Battle of Shiva was half that during the Battle of the Corridor, and only a little larger even when one accounts for the non-participating Imperial fleets. <br />
<br />
::::Of all fleets, I would think the Black Lancers too would have been the most understrength or at risk of becoming a hodgepodge fleet with half of them really being Fahrenheit's old fleet, with standard battleships instead of fast battleships. The Black Lancers were mauled by Yang in the Corridor, absorbed Fahrenheit's fleet, then again took presumably heavy casualties at the Second Battle of Rantemario. Either the Black Lancers were taking all new fast battleship production (or taking in existing ones from other fleets) or their core force of fast battleships would have shrunken by the time of the Battle of Shiva. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::Yeah, especially where the expense of the repeated military expeditions is explicitly highlighted late in the series. As for the Black Lancers specifically, I thought after 2nd Rantemario they were pretty much back to how they were - I thought the battle served to bind the former Fahrenheit to Bittenfeld through his sheer force of personality. Its notable that there's no mention of any dissension or malingering in the Black Lancer ranks when Bittenfeld was arrested - they all almost turned to violence in unison for Bittenfeld. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:19, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::The expenses were probably starting to tell, accounting for Oberstein's opposition to further expeditions. He was always loyal to the idea of the Empire even above and beyond the individual Kaiser, and quite rightly criticized further expeditions on the basis that Reinhard's personal ideas of honour and desire for fighting was treating the assets of the Empire as his own personal rivate assets. Reinhard's treasury had been replenished by the confiscated assets of the high nobles, but repeated expeditions would surely have drained that. The proposed plan for building 2 fortresses on either end of the Fezzan Corridor would also have been further massive military spending (if they ever actually were built). Reinhard's "burn rate" of ships, personnel, and money probably exceeded the Goldenbaum dynasty period, and was sustainable only because it was a short period.<br />
<br />
::::::Regarding the Black Lancers, I was actually more referring to their equipment. In 2nd Rantemario, we still see Fahrenheit's forces with black painted standard battleships, whereas the original Black Lancers are using their fast battleships, showing that the supply of fast battleships isn't sufficient to re-equip the entirety of the old Fahrenheit fleet. The power of the Black Lancers lay in their concentration of fast battleships into one force, allowing them to shatter enemies like ancient cavalry charges or armoured spearheads. Having part of their strength be in slower standard battleships would have been like mixing infantry in with the cavalry, diluting the original fast shock force concept. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::: I think construction had begun on the fortress before the series was finished, overseen by Mittermeyer. As to the Black Lancers, in addition to their equipment, IIRC they were considered elite troops. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 13:52, 22 January 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==Animation==<br />
Oh yeah, I forgot - for all this battle's excellence in presentation and animation quality, the pet peeve I have is the few bizarre lighting issues. The ''Valendown'' is shrouded in shadow the only time we get a good look at her, and this odd ... "bug" is very prominent immediately when a Fast Battleship is struck by a pair of beams - perfectly visible prior, on impact the whole ship promptly goes black. Huh? [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Yes I noticed the same with the fast battleship. It doesn't make sense but I suppose they were trying to go for something where the debris is lit only by the hot gas and debris of the explosion. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 12:18, 3 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==What the Imperials should have done==<br />
<br />
Wagenseil's fleet should have pushed on regardless instead of turning away (or turned back again after seeing Wahlen on the other side). It would have taken heavy damage but it would have forced Julian to make the difficult choice of either facing them and leaving Wahlen to advance unchecked, or leaving Iserlohn open to Wagenseil if Julian moved to block Wahlen. The logical choice for Julian would have still been to block Wahlen's larger force, but even so Wahlen was grinding them down. The Thor Hammer would have likely therefore been engaging Wahlen, leaving Wagenseil a clear shot at assaulting the fortress. Though Wahlen would have taken heavier losses by pressing on and taking the Thor Hammer hits, he might have stood a chance of breaking through the thinner Iserlohn forces, and then Wahlen and Wagenseil combined might have had enough to overwhelm Iserlohn's small garrison through numbers. Now it is possible Wagenseil would still have been defeated by Iserlohn's smaller floating gun turrets but the outcome would have been more in doubt than what actually happened. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:58, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:Also, as the higher officers noted, if Wagenseil had been paying attention, he would've seen Merkatz's detachment too - this may have allowed him to reorganize his formation and close with the fortress before the Thor Hammer could finish coming around. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 12:43, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::And if Yang had simply fired at the Brunhilde at the end of the Battle of Vermillion rather than taking in nonsensical orders that pretty much his entire fleet disagreed with, he'd have likely lived longer than he did by not firing. But that would also have ended the story. Same thing here: had Julian been forced out of Iserlohn, he'd have had to surrender shortly thereafter. That would also have cut the story short. Sometimes, for the story to go on, one side is meant to win. ^_^ [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
<br />
:::This was one of those battles, like the Battle of Shiva, that evolved out of a skirmish, and which was unplanned (at least for the Imperials). It showed the mediocrity of the following generation of Imperial admirals. I think Wagenseil, like Thurneysen, was an example of the later generation hungry to earn some glory and rank before the era of war ended, leading them to take risks and aggressive actions that bring them to grief. Wagenseil's position was simply to guard the exit of the Corridor. He could have not pursued when Julian disengaged, but he got greedy. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 20:37, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::I think the quality of Imperial admirals in the following generation was "uneven" at best. Thurneysen was foolish, and Wagenseil was a mediocrity, but on the other hand Brauhitch was a solid performer (survivor of Vermilion, opened the way at the Corridor) - as were Mittermeyer's men - Bayerlein, Droisen, Sinzer and Bülow. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 23:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::Oh, and don't forget Holzbauer of the Lutz Fleet (smashed Knappstein) or the guy (whose name escapes me atm) who shielded Reuenthal's withdrawal at Second Rantemario. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 05:18, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:::::The 'What if?' factor of LoGH has always been interesting. Going all the way back to Astarte, where the question arises that if Jean Robert Lap had survived, would things be different? Assuming Yang was right when he called Lap his equal, how would the Empire have faired against another Yang-like shrewd officer, even if he hadn't reached Yang's level of fame and influence? In any event, the later Imperial admirals seem to demonstrate the overall issues inherent with creating a competent body of officers. Reinhard succeeded initially because he picked the cream of the crop; the poor officers simply soldiered on in other admiralties until their demise and were of no concern. Reinhard could no longer do it once he was responsible for the entire military though. He had the whole gamut, and nowhere to dump the incompetent ones unless he could prove they were incompetent, although he tried to give them less important commands. Reinhard couldn't let the rest of the Imperial military simply die as he had when he was only responsible for part of it. 06:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
<br />
::::::I have never really considered Bayerlein, Droisen, Sinzer and Bülow that great. Bayerlein was always getting himself into trouble and needing to be saved. The others due to their hot-headedness created openings for the enemy, such as their chaotic rush for the apparently retreating Iserlohn forces as the Battle of Shiva (which of course turned out to be a feint). They may be competent but their rashness keeps them from being great. Partly I ascribe that to youth, partly to their character, and partly due to their circumstances. They have seen the examples of Reinhard, Kircheis, Mittermeyer, Reuenthal, etc. spring up the ranks due to their performance in war, and were trying to emulate their examples and advance their careers. This same desire for career advancement is what led Grillparzer and Knappstein to their little scheme to side with then betray Reuenthal. <br />
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::::::As leader of the whole military, Reinhard had to give the image of impartiality and give opportunities to people to achieve glory in battle. That's one reason why Kempff was chosen instead of Mittermeyer or Reuenthal to do the fortress battle, and why Sombart was chosen for securing the supply line. Reinhard couldn't be seen to be giving jobs only to the same people over and over again, else he would appear to be engaging in favoritism, which could breed resentment. By giving the opportunity for people to succeed, he had to also give them the opportunity to fail. [[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:47, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
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:::::::Bayerlein, during the Battle of the Corridor, stated, when it seemed clear that he was playing right into Yang's hands, that if he got into trouble, that Mittermeyer would get him out if worst came to worst. He wasn't thinking of a strategy if in a pinch. He was relying on his superior to do it FOR him. So, no, Bayerlein wasn't that great, I agree. Certainly not upper tier. [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
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Note, saying someone is "solid" is nowhere near the same as saying they're great or upper tier (that is the province of Reinhard's High Admirals and above). They're competent and don't make glaring errors, nothing more. There's a differnece between getting legitimately outfought by your betters (i.e. Bayerlein vs Yang or Reuenthal) and making a thorough ass of yourself. As for Bayerlein in the Corridor, he knew his place in the grand scheme - he had a small force and if Yang was going to trap him, there'd be very little he could do to get out of it, so he deliberately went ahead to change the situation within the limits of his abilities. Part of being a subordinate is knowing your place and the limits of your capabilities. [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 13:16, 17 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
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:Well, even as subordinates, had they been in this situation, Yang or Reinhard would have been able to not only get out of a trap, but likely make the bigger fleet look foolish. But thats what legends do, I suppose: something legendary. ^^ [[User:FPA Forever|FPA Forever]]<br />
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::Exactly so :) [[User:Vympel|Vympel]] 10:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)<br />
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==Picture of the Battle==<br />
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Actually, speaking purely from personal artistic preference, what about instead of the Thor hammer firing from that angle, it was instead either Wahlen's fleet approaching Iserlohn (the shot where the battleship does a flyby of the camera), or perhaps Wagenseil's fleet with the circular glow of the Thor Hammer shot behind them about to hit them? <br />
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[[User:Iracundus|Iracundus]] 10:32, 31 May 2021 (UTC)</div>Iracundushttps://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Fleet_File_Collection_Vol.1RFleet File Collection Vol.1R2021-02-27T15:10:02Z<p>Iracundus: </p>
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<div>[[File:Fleet File Collection 01R.jpg|right|250px]]<br />
Produced by [[Wright Staff]], Fleet File collections contain sets of fine-detailed starship models in 1/12000 scale. Each ship figure comes with a display stand with the ship's name painted on the base. Made of ABS plastic, some (minor) assembly is required.<br />
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The Fleet File Collection, Volume 1R, contains a total of 10 ships:<br />
*2x [[Brünhild]] ([[Goldenbaum]] and [[Goldenlöwe]] versions)<br />
*2x [[Alliance battleship (788 UC era)]]<br />
*3x [[Imperial battleship (788 UC era)]] ([[Grendel]], [[Morholt]], [[Tannhäuser]])<br />
*2x [[Asgrimm]] ([[Goldenbaum]] and [[Goldenlöwe]] versions)<br />
*1x [[Imperial fast battleship (788 UC era)]] (Schwartz Tiger)<br />
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==Product details==<br />
*MSRP: ¥7000<br />
*Dimensions: 27.5 x 19.5 x 9.9 cm / 520g <br />
*Release date: July 2010<br />
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{{navbox/ffc}}<br />
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[[Category:Fleet File Collections|Fleet file collection vol 01r]]</div>Iracundus