Talk:Legend of Galactic Heroes Gaiden (OVA)

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Revision as of 15:18, 18 September 2011

Article title

I was thinking about this, and it occurred to me that we might need to rename this article to Legend of Galactic Heroes Gaiden (OVA). After all, the novels and manga are also called Gaiden, aren't they?  ♥ kine @ 15:53, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Technically, yes, but I'm not certain it's necessary. I think the manga may have a sub-title, however. Canary 15:57, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Translation issues

I dislike some of these translations (most are copied directly from CA — i have made a few changes, but they're small). I don't want to write up a whole thing on the translation notes page, so i'll just quickly make some notes here:

• A Short Trip to the Past — I don't see 'short' listed as one of the synonyms for the hiragana there. A little trip seems possibly more accurate. But i'm not sure

• Chronicle of the Second Battle of Tiamat, Part I — I think a more literal translation would be 'Chronicle I of the Second Battle of Tiamat', because it does not use the kanji for 'part'. Is that OK in English? (Same for Part II)

• Planet POW Camp — I hate this title. It must be changed! Some possible alternatives: 'The Prison Planet', 'The Internment Camp Planet', 'The Detention Planet', &c.

• A Rebellion of Microscopic Size — The title 'A Microscopic Rebellion' certainly rolls off the tongue better in English. However, i am unsure if we should go that route, because 'size' is written in katakana. Is writing out 'microscope size' that way the standard method of doing it in Japanese? If so, we can change it. If not, then they've probably put it in there because they wanted to emphasise the word 'size' (and thus we should keep it)

• A Thread from the Past — 'Threads from the Past' sounds better to me, but since i haven't seen the episode i can't understand the context. ( ps don't spoil it for me :/ )

• The Journey in Search of the Exit — Maybe 'A Journey in Search of a Way Out' or something? Just sounds weird the way it is

(As mentioned before i have not seen any of Spiral Labyrinth yet, so if i am missing context on these, that's why)  ♥ kine @ 03:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Your re-naming suggestions all sound fine to me, and work because the Japanese is sufficiently open to interpretation. Regarding "Planet POW Camp," I don't remember what the kanji for that was, but I would suggest "The Prison Planet." (Always gotta go for the alliteration after all.

Oh, and I'm not sure if this would require altering templates or crap like that, but I'm fairly certain "Duelist" is spelled with only a single "L." Canary

It's spelt with two L's in UK English — see, for example, The Duellists. As far as the titles, if you're OK with what i've suggested then i'll get around to changing them eventually (i have so many things to do, jc)  ♥ kine @ 20:45, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

スパイラル・ラビリンス=Spiral Labyrinth is the title of the whole package. Almael 18:29, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Canon inconsistancy or contradictions

• Position of Kapche-Lanka and Legnica Chapter I (SWV episode) has been moved to after Tiamat instead above and to the right of Iserlohn.
• The 'double snake ring' tactic by Yang being first employed by him is contradicted by Bruce Ashbey's tactic.
• As well as Reinhard's double headed tactic in the same battle.
• The FPA ships in Bruce Ashbey's era looks like from an earlier era than the historic ships seen in(LOGH: 'Julian's Journey, Mankind's Journey').
• Current FPA standard cruiser wrongly 'drawn' with extra engines which weren't engines before.
• The dialogues use the Phezzani dinar currency Prisoners and Hostages (episode) instead of the dollar currency when referring to FPA money being stolen.

There are probably more. Almael 18:29, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

The look of ships could be explained away as as perhaps a change in design philosophy on the part of both sides (perhaps as the result of weapon or material technology progression). Certainly there seems to be a very significant revamping of the Imperial destroyer design from the era of Bruce Ashbey to the more recent missile and railgun armed Imperial destroyer. Speculative but it could reflect a desire to maximize alpha strike and short range capabilities over longer battlefield endurance. The change from angular boxy ships from the Dagon era to the curved hulls of the Bruce Ashbey era and back to the boxy ships of the Yang era could parallel how tank armor started out boxy, then went to sloped curved steel armor, then back to angular slab sided with composite armor

That theory is faulty to begin with because changes in design philosophy always survive in later generations, they do not disappear completely. Logically: There is always the desire to maximize fire power whether in the past or future. So it is a mute point, but designs that help maximize weapon usage will be used forever. There won't be much change from this kind of engineering view point. From an artistic point sure there are all kinds of reasons. The tank comparison is wrong on several points:

• In the past slopped design were not possible due to primitive manufacture. It has nothing to do with design perse.
• Today we went back because we want to minimize size.

Battlefield endurance is one major important point. It's the single difference between survival or victory and defeat.

Btw. in Gaiden 1 or the movies designs from the manga were used for the time slot bewteen the main series and Bruce Ashbey's era.Almael 18:19, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

That is what I meant when I said design philosophy change as a result of material technology. We don't know for example whether some new composite or armor was developed after the Ashbey era, that could not be so easily made into curved plates, meaning a return to flat plates, or whether due to the material's properties it actually performed better in flat plates. The old material from the Dagon era may have been able to be manufactured in curved shapes by the Ashbey era due to technological advancement. Alternatively perhaps due to other factors such as economic factors, it was deemed inefficient (too much effort for insufficient return) to continue to make curved armor plates for ships. Nonetheless, the overall main design themes of both the Empire and the FPA are sustained during the series. The FPA ships still have their single huge engine, whereas the Imperial ships have multiple engines, for example. Ship for ship, the FPA tended to continue to mount greater number of frontal guns. Even so not all the changes in look are purely technological. Just as the Empire dramatically changed its destroyer design, the FPA seems to have phased out its high speed cruiser/battlecruiser from the Asbhey era, with no replacement. Clearly there were other considerations at work.

Iracundus 01:45, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

This may be somewhat lenghtly. I think we should move this discussion to a LoGH Starship technology and Design discussion page. But I will leave this to a higher authority or a second opinion for that matter. I think it's a bit too much interpreting into a story which didn't care much about starship design from the beginning but has been "augmented" over time.However, I don't mind discussing it. :DIt's very unlikely engineers would accept a step back because of manufaturing problems only. For example, the F117 stealth fighter was facetted because computer technology and the russian radar reflection theory were not refined enough for a curved design. It wasn't a manufacturing problem. Anyway, we are talking about big ships here. Even if manufacturing restricts curved form and size, it's still by far no problem to build smooth surface and curvy ships. It would have to be a real incompetent starship builder who wouldn't be able to do this. The Bruce Ashbey's era FPA ship engines are way out of proportion. It's like there is no considering for fuel at all. This has no ounce of any engineering/reality whether fiction or not. The theory of engine number is faulty because the Imperial ships are bigger than FPA ships. One of their engine is big enough for a FPA ship. Some FPA ships do have more than one engine (transport, engineering).Besides the FPA groups engines together to a block so they do seem as one but are not, like the assault ship. The same goes for the cannons. Although, FPA ships have more cannons they are smaller and overall power is the same or less, actually. If this was reality I would say less and the FPA had never had a chance to begin with. Since, we are speculating on other consideration: The reason why the Empire change the destroyer design was probably because it's nearly as big as a FPA cruiser. The FPA phased out the highspeed cruisers because they lacked endurance. It's a waste to have ships that get destroyed instantly. Besides this point is purely rewriting canon. The only consideration of anime LoGH ships that are not class(function) related are the sloped/curvy designs of the Brunhild and Parcival to the advantage of their armor, and the Ahsgrim's transformation for its super cannon. If you ever take a look at the novels you will notice the FPA ship arts are curvy (way better) and have lots of engines. The Empire designs are less sightly. Except for some technologies there are no definitive set differences in the novels. It's all up to the artists. In this Gaiden 2 case they probably wanted "birdy" silhouettes.Almael 09:24, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd be interested to see a screencap of "Current FPA standard cruiser wrongly 'drawn' with extra engines which weren't engines before." - I have all the Gaiden, of course, but I don't remember seeing that and wouldn't know where to see it. Vympel 10:02, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Gaiden1 ep23 FPA cruiser

Gaiden1 ep23 FPA cruiser

Gaiden2 ep27 FPA cruiser

Gaiden2 ep28 FPA cruiser

Ah cool, thanks for that. How odd. I normally have a good eye, missed that! (also sorry Iracundus thought you didn't sign, my bad) Vympel 16:26, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

With regards to the engine number, I have evidence back from The Data Book which says Imperial ships use multiple engines of moderate thrust, for redundancy and mitigation in case of one being knocked out by being hit (though we see an example in the Gaiden where this fails). We see similar other differences in design that may seem inconsequential but that can rapidly become significant if applied to the mass scale production as practiced by the FPA and the Empire. A small cost saving per ship can translate into a huge total cost saving when applied across the entire FPA fleet. Imperial ships for example are capable of entering atmosphere and landing on a planet directly, whether or not the planet has prepared landing sites or not, whereas FPA ships have to be boarded by shuttle. The Empire affords its commanders large quarters, and has time to create more specialized ship classes like the medical ships or the gunship. It also becomes the first to develop large scale Zephyr particle projection on a ship scale. Over and over we see that the Imperial ships have more streamlined mature technology with frills, whereas the FPA squeezes equivalent battlefield performance in equal or smaller ships with equal or fewer men at the omission or cost of these refinements. This can be explained due to economic and political considerations. The FPA has always been smaller than the Empire, and since from its founding it knew that the Empire would be hostile to it, the FPA had to go for a "no frills" approach of achieving maximum performance with as few resources as possible. Iracundus 17:34, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

As an observant person I wasn't paying such attention, though, not consciously at least. I was actually fast forwarding through the gaiden series. It's just that I had to see its tail up close that I noticed. lol Redundancy is a good point for normal circumstances but what many forget is that this is space war. Weapons waged by a space-faring civilization are all weapons of mass destruction or such high energies that one hit will cause so much destruction that this will become a mute point... Redundancy mustn't really fail totally in order to gain an advantage. The point is to prevent the enemy from being able to do what he wants as well as restrict his movement. For that creating engine imbalance is good enough. However, in practice this isn't always a good idea especially when you are holding the line. This is something for a highspeed battle. It was actually a bad idea in the anime. Economy and politic aren't really the starting reason for the differences even though they dominate the present. It's rather historic.

• When the FPA founders fled they weren't able to bring all the technology ever created by humanity with them while the Empire got it all!
• The FPA's economy is that of a free world so technology is highly sophisticated but also very costly, hence, smaller ships and numbers. Due to economy many technologies will just be dropped because of they have low returns. So the systems produced are rather selected due to political reasons than the "best available". Only a pure military rule could do better but then it's no different from an Empire. LOL
• Human resources within the Empire is cheap, and selection of the leading "inventors" depends on how they sell their idea and varies over time, too. So people with grand crazy idea are selected but punishment etc. will sooner or later hamper this. Intrigues, back alley deals etc are more or less the same as in the FPA so this can be ignored most of the time. For a short time the Empire will have advances similar to nazi germany but int he long run it end up like the sowjets.

The story doesn't go into these details and only scratches on the surface. Maybe the FPA ships pack the same alpha strike power but due to size they lack endurance. Battle endurance imho is the most significant point. It means to be able to survive and fight as long as possible. This is exactly the true selling point of the F22. Here, firepower was reduced compared to the F15 in favor of endurance. In practice it means a high endurance force can fight more battles and has a chance to win. A low endurance force may win one battle but doesn't necessary mean it can fight or survive another. Endurance is also the main reason in ep1 why Reinhard made a clockwise movement. Not just because he wanted to get in the back but to refill his troops endurance. When you consider distances imho he wouldn't have made it before the FPA forces met in the middle since his move is a way longer route than for either FPA forces left, whether they go for the 4th fleet or meet each other. On technological aspect the FPA sure are more powerful(fighting) due to size but still cannot make up for endurance or reserves or absolute power that comes with size. Here endurance is not just more "armor" or volume but it also includes regeneration or repairs, the fuel that allows longer operation. In short it allows a ship to survive or take more hits and fight longer, and hence, deal a lot more destruction. On equal or near equal technological level size comes with higher total power output. This can be an advantage depending on design choices. But mostly it just means higher firepower and stronger shields. For the FPA to close the gap they would have to be 2x more efficient in regard to energy consumation which is mute due to necessary weapon power. In the end it's a question of size and smart design choices. But as I said, in a free world best technological choices are not the deciding factor but money. As depicted in the anime the FPA had never had a chance. lol Then again the original story never got into such details nor restricts designs as such. All this becomes a mute point. It's all very nice entertainment. :D Almael 12:08, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

First off, the term is "moot point" NOT "mute point". Mute and moot, 2 different words. Also, whether or not you think it was a good design decision to have multiple moderate engines for redundancy over a large single engine doesn't matter because the Data Book says that was the rationale for the Empire doing so, and that counts for more than any one personal opinion. Whether the rewards of doing so genuinely justified the effort on a large scale is unknown, only that in at least one example in the Gaiden it wasn't enough. However just because designers do something does not mean they are right. We see the Goldenbaum Dynasty had a preference for huge giant battleships as their flagships and we also see the use of such impractical things as "shield ships" for the flagships, both bombastic statements of power of a dynasty in decline. Their subsequent disappearance shows these design choices were outmoded or deemed inefficient.

Finally as for all that writing you made with claims the FPA had ships with lower battlefield endurance, can you present canonical evidence to back up such a claim? All I see are wide sweeping generalizations and far fetched claims of the FPA needing to be 2x as efficient to stand a chance. Sounds like your own personal fan fiction. Nowhere in the anime is there a suggestion that there is any substantive difference in the military performance of the ships of whether it be short term performance or long term endurance, yet from the ship dimension stats we know the FPA cruiser was smaller than the Imperial cruiser. The only viable conclusion is that the FPA cruiser manages to squeeze equivalent performance into a smaller size. Whatever they may be sacrificing to do so, there is no evidence endurance is one of them.

The fact the FPA, a smaller state founded at a later date by dissidents, can hold off the Empire for over a century in direct battlefield confrontation, with less resources and manpower, defeating every major Imperial invasion attempt prior to Reinhard's era, says as much for the FPA's efficiency as the Empire's inefficiency. Of course both systems ultimately decayed but the Empire, with its larger territory and reserves, could better tolerate the drain of long term war and corruption. If the FPA had concluded peace with the Empire as Yang had hoped, or even retrenched and refused to accept the kidnapped Erwin Josef, maintaining the 3-way balance of power, then the FPA could have survived to bide its time and rebuild its civil society and its military strength over generations. Iracundus 12:57, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

mute=refraining from producing speech. That's why all is moot. As I said long before it's senseless to begin with, but since we are speculating :) FPA ship endurance see Gaiden2 episode 27 and 28. Here they run dry due to excessive action. See databook info on "Airget lamh", "Abai Geser". There it should say these lack endurance due to battery, power usage (same power source for more weapons power). The efficiency number could be anything of course this is simple logic to show the physical(law) point. In any case, since they use similar weapons and since those have similar total power, there is no reason to believe FPA weapons need less energy for the same result. Hence, no matter how better tech the FPA has they need more or less the same power output. The rest is a matter of fuel or munition for that matter. If you think a tanker has the same endurance(range) as a car with the same performance(speed) or that both receive the same crash damage that's your opinion. For one the Iserlohn corridor restricted the Empire from using their power. See Sparta. For the same reason the Empire needn't to enforce either. On the other side having the FPA the Empire could get rid of unwanted people. In any case, they had only two major conflicts in the last 150 years. That's hardly worth mentioning. The first the Empire lost because they simply underestimated the FPA and let themselves trapped. The second time they where betrayed by agent-information networks. So story wise proper reason have been given why the FPA lasted that long. If there was peace between both sides, then there won't be a need for military power. Both will profit from each other by exchange or movement of people between both nation. People who don't like either will move to Phezzan. Balance may not be even necessary anymore just their existence to offer people places and condition they prefer to live. Hence, they would stay stable for some time. Of course this is an ideal condition that's not going to happen. Over time certain people will rise on any side who want more power whether for good or bad. So there will always be conflict. The only means to prevent such is a monarchy which is the most efficient form of government. However, this won't work or last long that's why Julian tried to introduce a means of control via a constitution. Of course that won't work either. The best solution is to educate people and hope they turn out better. For that you need a stable and peaceful environment over several generations. Anyway, even if all three exists only and do no conflict, decay will take place as people get accustom to it and find ways to take advantages beyond their need. Over time this adds up. We end up with unsatisfied people. Then everything starts anew. And we get another age of Heroes. :D Almael 15:17, 18 September 2011 (UTC)