User talk:FPA Forever

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Contents [hide] 1 Mutation of Titles 2 Hello! 3 Ideal to Fight For story 4 Alliance Technology

Mutation of Titles

Could you please tell me more how my titles mutated? Thats easy to change. FPA Forever

In earlier chapters, you referred to them as Secretary of Finance etc., while in this latest chapter they are referred to as Minister of Finance. Just noticed that inconsistency. Iracundus 03:24, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Darn. Didn't see that. I got things mixed up because I had Lichtenlade in the mix. I'll fix it. Thanks! FPA Forever

Hello!

Hey there, just wanted to say welcome, and thanks in advance for your contributions. If you have any questions, feel free to leave a message on my talk page (or any other talk page, for that matter) :)  ♥ kine @ 00:42, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Ideal to Fight For story

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Well, Westerland will be stopped and the endgame of the Imperial Civil War will be slightly longer, cost more ships on both sides, and otherwise not be as neatly ended as in the OTL. Which makes me Wonder if I could start showing snippets from Merkatz' POV. Its an Alliance-driven story, but HE will be in the Alliance eventually, and will participate to the main story.

I've always found the population and material drain irrealistic, since the Empire is never shown having any of that. Yes, it has larger population, but it also has a larger fleet. So what do you think? Minimize the Alliance drain, or show that there IS an Imperial drain?

As for Iserlohn's fate, its too soon to say. I've got several options I'm considering.

Thoughts? FPA Forever

Merkatz's POV is about the only way you could really examine the Imperial civil war unless you take the form of dry intelligence reports to the Alliance. If the ending of the civil war is less clean, and the Lippstadt nobles' cause not as entirely discredited among the general population, then there may be lingering Goldenbaum sympathizers. Merkatz's internal motivations were always one of those things that was never as explicitly explored in the OTL series, with a lot of it implicit, based on the idea of the old loyal retainer, faithful to the very end to his oath of loyalty even though he knows his cause is hopeless.

I think the main material and personnel exhaustion from the Alliance really got rolling from all the wasteful failed attacks on Iserlohn. We see the Alliance fleets get mauled multiple times in just 3 years and that is just the 5th and 6th attacks (plus 3rd and 4th Tiamat), yet they are built back up to full strength by the start of the main OVA series. This means a lot of material resources and personnel being drawn from the rest of society to accomplish this rapid rebuilding. Overall if you look at the timeline of the war, the size and tempo of operations increases over time, not helped by the fact the Empire was on the strategic offensive and could effectively dictate the pace of operations. The Alliance was always in a reactive defensive role strategically to play on its knowledge of the terrain and also shorter supply lines. Dagon and Kornelias I's expedition took place 28 years apart, and 2nd Tiamat was the big battle of Ashbey's generation. Yet by 792 UC, the Iserlohn battles are routinely happening with 30,000+ ships on the Alliance side. The Alliance was hurling itself in a frenzy against this forward base and expended strength it could not afford. If Iserlohn had never been built, the old back and forth fighting might have continued and while still draining would not have been as terrible for the Alliance.

The Goldenbaum Empire I would argue was no longer trying to win and its expeditions were serving as just another political move to strengthen one's political position (noble and emperor/kaiser alike), so they were never committing irreplaceable forces. If an expedition were defeated, there might be a relatively longer lull til the next attack. The Empire never seemed to have that war hysteria and existential fear of invasion and conquest that hung over the Alliance, probably because the Empire's territory was never violated before the Alliance took Iserlohn. Also a lot of the Imperial forces were effectively tied up by the high nobles as their effective private armies and the Imperial military was riddled with courtly intrigues and noble patronage, as well as rampant corruption. The Empire was also involved in a lot of space castle building as evidenced by all the fortresses in the Empire. So I would say the drain on the Empire took the form of corruption, pointless expenditure of resources on bloated projects like fortresses, forces being tied down garrisoning these fortresses or other noble territory. Battlefield losses and drain seemed to be on the order of Dagon and 2nd Tiamat once in a generation, with the rest of the time in between being many minor strategically pointless battles and skirmishes like Arlesheim rather than big defeats like the Alliance's failed Iserlohn offensives. Iracundus 10:49, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Here's a thought about Westerland. In the OTL, Kircheis was too far to really know what happened until he heard rumours. In this timeline, just slightly different, Kircheis (or another higher-ranked officer, Mittermyer or Reuentahl) had forces marshalling in the area, which detected the enemy and, seeing what was about to happen, attacked them and stopped the assault, with the few nukes that were launched being intercepted by blanket fire. This is not disobeying orders, its a perfectly natural reaction Now, any of the three would notice the recording devices sent, and would learn of their origins. At this point, making the logical connection, eventually the three would talk about this, troubled by the possibilities. Would the verbal row between Kircheis and Reinhard be changed by this? FPA Forever

Oberstein would be more likely to be in trouble as he had sent those recon ships after telling Reinhard the wrong time. Reinhard only went along because it had already occurred, and assumed de facto responsibility since he could not be seen to be having a subordinate mislead him. Iracundus 01:55, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

By the way, what do you guys think would be the ramifications, if Rebello's new party, being the 'middle ground' between the War Party and Peace Party, managed, in part because Yang would firmly endorse it (Yang does it because he doesn't think the Peace Party can sway a majority, and anyway still doesn't quite realize the extent of his public appeal), to win the 797 Elections, putting his party in control, at least for a few years? Does is help the Alliance to have political moderates at the helm? FPA Forever

Depends on what this moderate party's position is on various issues. The Alliance's problem is it has been turning into a fascist military and police state in everything except name, due to the Empire existing as a constant bogeyman with which to whip up nationalism and war hysteria, and to demand yet more sacrifices from the population in the name of national security. The Alliance needs to secure its borders but not at the cost of further ruinous military spending and prioritization, which risks turning the Alliance into a version of North Korea. For most of the war, the Alliance was caught in this bind of having an enemy that was ideologically incapable of negotiating or accepting peace with what it saw as "rebels". Reinhard's government, in the OTL, appears more practical than the old Goldenbaum dynasty and dealt with the Alliance as a de facto independent state, even though formal recognition only came right before dissolving the Alliance. For the moderates to be successful, they would have to be able to overcome the war propaganda image of the Empire as evil incarnate, the whole idea of the Alliance somehow crusading and liberating the people of the Empire, and to secure the borders at an acceptable price. They would also have to overcome the entrenched vested interests that benefit from the situation such as military contractors or politicians. Politicians don't even have to be overtly corrupt and embezzling to be opposed to these moderates. They may be opposed to reduction in military spending because military spending generates jobs and income for their districts (so they may genuinely care for their constituents just in a short sighted way), or because they genuinely believe the only way to hold off the Empire is a military first policy.

That was where Dwight Greenhill and the NSMC had failed in the OTL. Their idea of solving the problems in the Alliance was to further turn it into a fascist state, run by the military, and to divert even more manpower and resources into rebuilding the military so that it could stand militarily against the Empire. In doing so, even if they had been successful, they would have destroyed the very Alliance they were trying to protect. Iracundus 00:47, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Eventually, in this story, Yang will take Bucock's place as Space Fleet Commander (Yang not being stuck on Iserlohn will be necessary for later narrative points, anyway). What kind of commander would he be? FPA Forever

To be honest I don't think Yang would be very great at it, since by that level you start running into significant administrative responsibilities, which is something Yang struggles with personally. He himself said he used up all of his lifetime's supply of diligence at El Facil. Yang's personal talents lie more towards tactics and strategy (though in OTL he was more confined to tactics) rather than administration. All his subordinates in the Yang Fleet helped deal with most of the day to day menial work and logistics for him, but would they follow him into the administrative command structure or remain with the Iserlohn/13th Fleet? Space Fleet Commander also entails involvement with the political end of things, and Yang is not known for being particularly tactful or politically adept. Remember as Iserlohn fortress commander he is in effect dictator of Iserlohn, so what he says goes. That would not be the case if he has to negotiate and wheel and deal with the Alliance government. Finally there is the matter of age. Yang is still young, and his reputation while growing, doesn't start to acquire that aura of invincibility til about the Forress vs. Fortress battle in OTL. Bewcock/Bucock himself only gets respect after years of long service and veteran status, while originally he was looked down upon for working his way up from the ranks instead of graduating from the Academy. This means Yang may still get resistance from older members of the administration and military hierarchy that resent somebody shooting to the top like that so easily, just like Bruce Ashbey was resented. Falk and others like him would also see it as confirmation of their suspicions that Yang is just in it for the rank and glory. So Yang might excel at the strategy and tactics aspect but be mediocre at the politics or reliant upon subordinates for the administrative half. Being good at only half the job does not count as great IMO. Iracundus 13:12, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Good point. Still, I guess thats one more aspect of the show that is one-sided. Reinhard was masterful at pretty much everything, got nearly all the breaks, almost everything worked out perfectly, while Yang had greater personal limitations, was faced with situations that continually slammed right in his face.

Yang won't have everything go his way, but in the final analysis, in the last battle between Yang's forces and Reinhard's forces, Yang will beat Reinhard. A beating sound enough that it forces the proud Emperor into peace talks. Does anybody have any ideas on how to do that? FPA Forever

Reinhard had the advantage of the autocratic system that once he was on top, allowed him to do whatever he wanted. This was aided by the elimination of the Lippstadt nobles and the confiscation of their wealth, as historically these nobles were the major check on the power of the Goldenbaum emperors. If the Lippstadt cause isn't as immediately and utterly discredited as in OTL and if more of their wealth is exhausted rather than confiscated, then these remaining holdouts might break out in rebellion again if Reinhard is fought to a stalemate or worse, and Reinhard might not be able to fund as massive or as long an expedition. This would be similar to Kornelias I, where his long absence from court along with a huge chunk of the Imperial military allowed others to try and launch a coup. Reinhard's popularity among the commoners also stemmed from the fact that he abolished the institutionalized privileges the nobles had enjoyed previously. It is easy to gain popularity if one has a demonized rich class of people that had historically oppressed the people, and any material gifts in the form of wealth or tax relief offered would only add to that. By comparison the Alliance doesn't have this kind of locked away wealth to liquidate to revitalize its society.

Remember however that the Empire is based on Imperial China and implicit in that is the "Mandate of Heaven". That is why the Chinese emperors rarely directly fought battles. Aside from the personal risk, a defeat would be a major ideological blow to their right to rule since obviously they would not personally have been defeated if they were destined to rule. Kornelias I avoided this trap because arguably he had been winning against the Alliance when he withdrew, allowing for some propaganda spin that he had not really lost. If Reinhard lost directly in battle, it would tarnish his image (if he is Emperor at that stage), though arguable his regime would still survive if he can extract some sort of face saving treaty. Iracundus 05:02, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Here's one that I think would reaally help me, especially as its one of Yang's most annoying quirks: the admirative way Yang saw Reinhard von Lohengramm and indeed many of his admirals. How come this guy, whose talents as a fleet commander have been shown at least twice, arguably three times to surpass Reinhard in strategy and certainly in tactics, felt the need to fairly gush with praise for his opposite. Although I know that Yang was seen in much the same way by Reinhard (although Reinhard didn't gush quite so annoyingly), it sometimes grated even on other Alliance characters, including Murai and Attenborough. Why did Yang gush so much, even though he always ended up saying that, in the final analysis, he stood in opposition? FPA Forever

Professional respect for a skilled opponent. Much like how Mueller lectured his subordinate after the first half of the fortress vs fortress battle. It is like the old gentlemanly conduct between officers at war. Like how Admiral Togo visited his Russian counterpart in hospital and gave a cheer up statement about being defeated. These kinds of views are sort of like "This is business and not personal." Iracundus 02:45, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

So then, just for the fun of it: how do you beat the Empire? It seems that all the scenarios point to the Empire winning whatever the Alliance does. How does the Alliance win? If its necessary, I'll have Ansbach hit his target. Its a last resort, but the story isn't about Reinhard. He's not important here, except as a threat. This is about the Alliance turning things around. My next story will be Imperial-minded and will extensively feature Reinhard, Kircheis and many others of the Reichflotte. This one is focused on Yang. And I'm not having his side lose in the end. The OTL took care of that. FPA Forever

To recap my earlier post: "The Alliance had higher per capita productivity due to the inefficiencies of the Goldenbaum Empire with the nobles locking up or embezzling a lot of the wealth and resources of the Empire for their own private gain or expended in power struggles. If there are lingering Lippstadt or noble power bases or support then the Empire has more resources tied up, or if more Lippstadt forces were destroyed as opposed to surrendering then the Empire would have less to work with. The other key player would be Fezzan switching back to preserving the balance of power. That was why the Terraists wanted to eliminate Yang as he stood the best chance of blocking Reinhard's unification of all known space. If Fezzan wanted to preserve the balance I see them targeting Reinhard (since Yang lacks the will to take over as a dictator) or supporting the Lippstadt nobles. Even if Reinhard is not killed, Fezzan could still cause trouble by leaking intelligence data or technology (such as the directional Seffle particle generator. Ultimately all the Alliance really has to do is outlast Reinhard who is on a limited lifespan due to his disease, and conduct sufficient domestic reform, enabling a period of peace for it to recover militarily and economically. Reinhard's ability and concentration of both political and military power is why the Empire poses such a threat to the Alliance. An Empire without Reinhard is much less of a threat. I think the situation of Fezzan and Rubinsky also needs to be dealt with, as it is Rubinsky that is consciously trying to now upset the balance of power. If his Terraist backers change their minds and go back to the old balancing act, then the Empire's edge also gets reduced.

What this means for the Empire is more unclear, since it depends on the situation of the Goldenbaum reactionaries (Lippstadt or otherwise), and whether Reinhard has any successors. If he does not become emperor and have an heir, then there may not be a clear succession. None of his fighting admirals are truly political leaders. Oberstein may have the political skill but lacks the charisma to lead. Hilda may have the skills but she may not have the support of Reinhard's admirals. What may follow then could be a whole new round of civil war or political intrigue. If Reinhard's reforms get rolled back or even scaled back in scope or time, then the Empire falls back into its inefficient state, preventing it from using its greater size and resources against the Alliance. That is why in Episode 49, Yang muses that while defeating Reinhard may be good for the Alliance, it may arguably be worse for the majority of humanity (i.e. all those in the Empire) since it would mean another period of chaos and possibly return of the old Goldenbaum establishment. If one looks at the older history of the Goldenbaum emperors, one can see how reform minded emperors were either assassinated (likely with Fezzan and Terraist involvement) or ended up with some minor watered down reforms that were better than nothing but still not substantial. Iracundus 11:08, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Anyone has any idea how to explain the population explosion of the original Alliance? From 160,000 settlers to a population capable of Fielding 2,500,000 soldiers, with the capability to fully support it at least for one major campaign? Realistically, it was probably because the author had no idea what to do with his numbers at times, or didn't get how a normal population grew. I came up with the Population Fortification Act, which ran from 528 UC to 578 UC, then was repealed when the Heinessen-born fully took control from the Exodus Fleet-Born. But what could it have been? Cloning? Assisted Reproductive Technology creating many multiple births? The original Alliance population was scared enough of the Empire to do such things willingly, while remaining quite democratic. And then, 50 years later, their descendants repealed the entire thing due to them not feeling this type of pressing dread, which means that 579-640 was an era of vigorous but relatively normal growth. Thoughts? FPA Forever

It could also have been simply government induced incentives (both carrot and stick) approach. The Alliance was mostly empty land then so the carrot could have been anybody bringing land into use could own it. Families having children above a certain number could be rewarded with additional financial incentives. The stick approach could have been even mandating that all people must produce a certain minimum number of children. IVF might be used as well to help families with fertility or multiple births. Iracundus 20:57, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Still, in your opinion, or anyone's opinion really, how large do you see the Alliance population being by 640 UC so that its able to field and support the Dagon Combined Fleet? FPA Forever

The rear supply area and security operations might have been augmented by use of civilian shipping and drawn up reservists, volunteers, and other security forces like police which would have freed up more personnel for the main battle. We see the use of civilian ships in the Grand Canal incident. I think the Dagon fleet was everything the Alliance could scrape together, as the politicians pretty much admitted that if they lost Dagon it was all over for the Alliance. So the level of militarization as proportion of the population may have been extremely high at that point in time, but those could have been emergency measures and not truly sustainable in the long run given what we know about population growth rates. Ultimately it is not just about producing babies in test tubes but also having the societal infrastructure for their upbringing and education. Iracundus 00:14, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I still say that the author didn't think the numbers through. 113 years for 160,000 to grow a civilization strong enough to fight back against a determined invasion is far-fetched. FPA Forever

The big difference compared to other historical examples we know of is that the Alliance founders were consciously aware of the threat of Imperial pursuit and invasion from the beginning. Other periods of population growth in history we know of has been more of an effect from prosperity rather than a fear driven mandated population explosion and development drive. The politicians of that time were described as puritan minded so the overall population's lifestyle might have been relatively austere as well.

I think the magnitude of the Alliance's victory at Dagon came as a surprise to everyone, including the Alliance, given they were outnumbered by about 2:1. The Alliance had built up a supply network, suggesting they anticipated a more prolonged campaign instead of the 10 day decisive battle that happened. The actual results far exceeded the Alliance's greatest hopes. The fear of national destruction at that time period, and the apparent mass mobilization would have added to the nationalist myth making afterwards. I think the story of the Alliance's founding and unexpected decisive victory against the odds at Dagon is meant to be one of those unlikely flukes of history, and it is this unforeseen devastating blow to the Empire's invincibility image that sparks the mass outflow of refugees.

Hmmm, let me tell you how I worked it out in my story to make the numbers work. In 527 UC, about 160,000 people settle on Heinessen, founding the Alliance. After a period of transition, the first Alliance High Council is elected. That Council is pretty much the Exodus Fleet Council, men and women in their late fifties to late sixties, led by a man named Steven Hart, who was 14 when the refugees fled, and has personal recollection of Imperial atrocities. This Council and its House of Representatives, all of them scared Exiles, vote the Population Fortification Act, an extreme In Vitro/Big Families/Governmental Foster Care behemoth that's accepted by the equally-scared population. From 528 to 578, the population grows at 10% to 12% per year. Normally impossible, the people of the Alliance civilians put forth all their energies into making it work, with the only project of equal importance being the construction of great orbital shipyards and the beginnings of the Star Fleet.

By the 570s, however, even extreme diligence can't sustain the Act, and a coallition of political and social idealist, lead by Ralph Delphino, an Heinessen-born man who was fostered by the state like so many others, calls for its end. Popular support crumbles, and the Act is repealed in 577, and stopped in 578. By this time, the population is about 45,000,000 people.

The 579-639 Era can be seen as the true golden age. While the Star Fleet would grow exponentially, many ressources and energies dedicated to the Act were turned to social infrastructure, living standards, education, art. By the time of Lin Pao's generation - those born around 600-610 - Things are stable and prosperous. The population growth is still high - 1.7% - but easy enough to absorb given the new infrastructure. By January 1st 640 UC, the Alliance stands at 120,000,000, with a strong military (although most of the Dagon Fleet ships are held in storage in hollowed-out asteroids) and a dedicated supply route from Heinessen to near the Corridor. By this time, only Heinessen is truly settled, other systems are being terraformed but have small populations)

But then Dagon happens. And then the Second Exodus. And then its another ballgame entirely. Thoughts? FPA Forever

Sounds as reasonable as it is going to get. At some point there has to be a transition from a spartan fear driven society to a more normal society, which is what you have above, as by 640 UC, things are stable enough for there to be both space piracy in other starzones and unsavory hotels, prostitutes, and fine dining. There is also clear evidence of widespread exploration as the Alliance seems to know the star systems well enough to feel comfortable at Dagon while the Imperials are blundering around with the sensor interference. The Iserlohn Diaries Gaiden which I am very slowly working on, also tell more about Julian's background and how his family were among Heinessen's first followers, and how his grandmother held an almost aristocratic view on bloodline, with First Exodus families being a class above later refugees to the Alliance. So it seems that the First Exodus family status becomes one of those badges of honor that opens doors in what is supposed to be an egalitarian society. This stratification and hardening of social class division is something seen later too with the attitude Academy officers take towards those that rise through the ranks. Iracundus 21:27, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

My take on the Imperial Civil War will be that, without Westerland, and with Reinhard lacking Bittenfeld's aggressive stance (which is more important than it seems on the surface), I think Merkatz and Fahrenheit - the only truly competent admirals in Lippstadt - would be able to work together and somewhat around the High Nobles. Especially after, well, said High Nobles would get their asses kicked a few times. They'd be a bother, and they'd ultimately make thing unworkable, but for a while, both men would be able to define a strategy.

Here's my take: Both men would be aware, just through early skirmishes, that the Lohengramm Admiralty has two different types of commanders. Lohengramm, Kircheis, Mittermyer and Reuentahl are, simply put, the types that can win battles even when outnumbered. Hard prey, too hard to go after immediately. Then there's Kempf, Mecklinger, Kesler, Wahlen and Lutz. Good commanders, but nowhere near as good as the first group.

So, they'd do this: Send small, quick forces to tie up the 'Big Three' temporarily, and keep a Watch on Reinhard (he's largely HQ, so he wouldn't intervene unless things went South). Then assault one or two of the other, lesser admirals. Those farthest from the Big Three, those farthest from immediate reinforcement, those slowed further by the small raiding forces send to trouble the other forces. Those two would be assaulted very, very strongly. Forces of 25,000 ships each, against their 15,000, each force led by Merkatz and Fahrenheit.

This, I think, would only work once, but it'd do significant damage to two forces. Then again, once that operation is done, how much would the High Nobles start screwing up?

And one important thing: when the High Nobles flee Odin, Littenheim, this time, is caught, leaving Braunschweig without a internal rival. Would that change things a lot? FPA Forever

The nobles would screw things up with or without Littenheim (his absence would mean the Lippstadt League wouldn't lose such a big chunk of its forces in one go). I could see how Littenheim's faction might want to rescue him, and waste resources trying to do so, while also perhaps being sabotaged by Braunschweig. However the key issue would still be the nobles viewing their commoner enemies with contempt, and wanting to go crush them in open battle rather than all this skirmishing and running around. They would also likely resent Fahrenheit because he was only minor nobility, and would see him being granted big command as him overstepping proper boundaries and overstepping his rank, even if this is approved by Merkatz. So I would see issues of internal discipline and insubordination by the noble officers even if Merkatz's strategy starts to work, much like how in the OTL Flegel and his buddies disobeyed orders and sortied from Geiersberg. The nobles have fantasies of them riding down and trampling the insolent peasants, not doing hit and run tactics or having to avoid and stay clear of enemy commanders of commoner background. That is why they fall so easily for feigned retreats because peasants fleeing in terror before the nobles is the natural and proper way of things in their minds. Iracundus 21:24, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I agree. I simply think it'd be more interesting if Merkatz and Fahrenheit managed an operation, made it work to an extent (Kempf, Lutz or Wahlen certainly are no match for Merkatz), only to be told, rather condescendingly, that while it was appreciated, the only way to win for a noble is to charge and crush those who oppose him. While I think that Merkatz and Fahrenheit would likely put together a good plan (and I think Lohengramm would privately admit to that), the nobles would screw things up by doing their own thing and ignoring military common sense. Thoughts? FPA Forever

Duke Braunschweig is fundamentally suspicious and jealous. Any success by Merkatz or a minor noble like Fahrenheit will be perceived as stealing the limelight and glory from him. Any success also serves to confirm the general noble contempt towards their commoner enemies. Merkatz's warnings for caution ironically fall on increasingly deaf ears the more success he has, and the nobles tend to perceive caution and waiting as equivalent to defeatism and cowardice. This is shown by their hot-headedness at the Battle of Altena, pressuring Staden to act and walk into the trap. The first unauthorized sortie from Geiersberg in the OTL reinforced this view because it appeared to show Merkatz's worries as groundless. In OTL, the Lippstadt nobles do not really take Reinhard seriously til it is too late, and from the very beginning focus on the anticipated noble struggle for the throne as if their defeat of Reinhard is an assumed certainty. Braunschweig's insistence on a war as opposed to assassination was to establish advantage over Littenheim, and his sending away of Littenheim was because the two still see each other as rival contenders for control of the throne. Iracundus 22:39, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

On the Alliance side, however, the conflict Loyalist and Malcontent, while perhaps not as far-reaching in scope as in the OTL, I think would still be pretty violent. Even without Greenhill, the 11th Fleet will follow Lynch's lead, as well as other elements of Alliance Intelligence and some Alliance ground forces. They'll take Shampool, asking the rest of the military to 'Help Save the Alliance', and find only accusations of treason and collusion. Without Greenhill, the Malcontents would have far less numbers and potency, but they'd also be a hard core of fanatics. Wouldn't it still be a hard fight? FPA Forever

The key difference I see would be the fate of the Artemis Necklace system if the rebels do not take Heinessen and this could have butterfly effects down the line. There would also be far fewer fence sitters. In OTL, a lot of military units declared for the coup when they seized Heinessen, only to then switch sides again once the coup looked like it was going to be defeated, while other units stayed solidly neutral til near the end then declared for the winner. If the rebellion's chances look more grim from the start, more of these will probably stay with the civilian government from the start. Although one difference would be whether the rebellious forces go so far as to lay out a government policy like the OTL NSMC did, which showed the NSMC policies to be basically a fascist military dictatorship, since the NSMC could theoretically claim to have overthrown the government while a smaller rebellion might not be able to realistically make such a claim. What I am getting at is, like how Westerland turned public opinion against the Lippstadt nobles, the Heinessen Stadium riot/massacre turned the public against the NSMC and also increased public mistrust of the military (ironically strengthening Trunicht's position). If the Alliance Civil War is shorter while the Imperial Civil War is longer, then that means there might be a time window wherein the Alliance is theoretically free to intervene in some fashion (military/political/espionage/economic) in the Imperial Civil War. Iracundus 03:47, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

In the OTL, about 30% (11th) of the Fleet sided with the Rebels, 30% (Iserlohn) sided with the Loyalists, and the remaining 40% or so (1st and other, smaller units) were neutral. Without Greenhill providing a more efficient leadership and better organization, how do you see the three sides (Rebel/Loyal/Neutral) being here? (15%/60%/25%)? FPA Forever

That is up to you and what story you want to tell. Greenhill's absence depending on how you weight it, could either mean a stillborn coup or a more radicalized hardline core of fanatics. But without Greenhill's setup and cover of putting forces into position under the excuse of maneuvers, then the rebels will find it that much harder to take over anything critical. It is possible then that Bewcock would be able to spot and prevent things from blowing up. He was taken by surprise by a seeming ally (Greenhill) turning out to be colluding with the rebels. Iracundus 11:10, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

True enough. I don't see the entire thing as stillborn, because Lynch likely spoke poison to several officers that he thought might be close to the breaking point. Lynch being an ex-officer himself, he likely knew many of the mindsets, and who would be ready to rebel. In the NSMC, however, you could see that Greenhill was, or so it seemed, the most reluctant and most moderate voice. He was one of the most respected, powerful and trusted officers in the Fleet, and it allowed the coup to be that much more powerful. However, once the coup succeeded, its clear that Greenhill's moderation was generally ignored by the more radical elements.

That's why, in my mind, Lynch would hook all of those radicals. They're men who think that the Council is corrupt, that the people are soft (they're rather right up to Rebello's election, and unlikt Greenhill, won't see that election as changing anything, just more of the same). They think its no longer their job to serve that kind of society (something Yang, Bewcock and other loyalists would point out is false, they made an oath, and its not their place to run the country). Lagrange, Bronze, Christian, Evans, and almost all of the radical-minded people will be taken in by Lynch's unusually persuasive arguments (he'll be telling them what they, deep down, always wanted to hear), and they'll put in a few moves. Lagrange is a Fleet Commander, Bronze high up in intelligence, and the others have their own contacts, so its not like their efforts would be negligible.

The main thing is how the OTHER Fleet Commanders will react. We know that Yang and Bewcock are staunch loyalists, and that Paeta was arrested early and thus was probably not in agreement with the coup, at least. I also think that Ulanf, with his speech about them all being soldiers of democracy, and thus it not being their job to questionned the elected government, would also be loyal. But what about the others, Appleton, Hoghwood and Borodin? Their actions SEEM to show them as having a loyalist penchant. Where do you think they'd side? With people tired of the way the government is fooling around, or with the people they fought beside as Dionysus? FPA Forever

Do not forget that Bronze was a double agent for Trunicht. He fed information to Trunicht in the OTL and we see him slip out of the NSMC meeting room. We have no idea how the other fleet commanders thought as they did not say much in OTL. They could span the entire spectrum from dedicated loyalty to the civilian government (whether loyal to the idea of civilian government control of the military or personal preference for the current leaders) to loyalist but sympathizing with the rebels (though thinking they may be misguided), to completely apolitical (I just do my job and stay clear of all politics), to reluctant rebel (like Greenhill, who saw the rebellion as patriotism and a reluctant duty to join) to fervent nationalist rebel like the rest of the NSMC. Iracundus 00:22, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

The thing here, is that I think that with the Fleet not being as utterly mangled, and with Rebello (who has a far cleaner reputation than Trunicht) as Chairman, I think that only the fervent rebels WOULD rebel. My idea is to have a sort of warped 'El Facil' situation. The rebels (the bulk of which being the 11th Fleet) manage to take a planet, and call for other units to join them. The problem is that only a few fervent squadrons would answer. The vast majority would initially sit on the fence, but then Carlsen of the 5th Fleet (replacing Bewcock), Ulanf of the 10th Fleet and Yang of Iserlohn would formally reject the rebels as traitors and criminals and move their forces against them, I think most units and commanders would follow their lead. To be honest, it would be more of a Rebellion than a Civil War in that case. Does it make sense? FPA Forever

Alliance Technology

Was the Triglav and the Leda II considered Advanced ships for the FPA forces? FPA Forever

Yes, they were completed in 797 and 796 respectively. Triglav was meant to be first of a new class and generation of battleships and another 3 were planned but these plans were shelved after Amritsar. Leda II was part of a limited test run of a possible new mass production cruiser incorporating curved armor technology like the Brunhilde but at a cost effective level (so perhaps not as good individually but cost effective enough for many more ships while Brunhilde was always just a one off prototype). However the Alliance also never got to mass production due to economic constraints after Amritsar. There would have been time constraints as well I imagine as retooling production lines and producing new parts would have taken time and the Alliance would have been vulnerable in the meantime. Instead the Alliance prioritized construction of existing mass production designs to maximize the number of ships it could field to try and replenish the losses at Amritsar. Iracundus 01:49, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so just for fun, here. In my story, the Battle of Dionysus is a defeat, but not the crushing blow that Armitsar was. Because of that, and this is already written in-story, HQ Chief Kubersly and Space Fleet Commander Bucock, both of them newly-promoted from the field and thus more pro-active than even Sitolet was, decide to go ahead with Triglav-Class Command Battleships and Leda-Class Cruisers being built, and since Rebello is the Chief Secretary of Finance still, they'd get the funds. Would adding such ships help the Star Fleet's overall ability to fight? FPA Forever

These designs might help bit they would not be a panacea or silver bullet that would turn the tide of the war in and of themselves. One of LOGH's themes is the battles are not won by some overwhelming technological advantage. Even Brunhilde would have fallen to the massed guns of Yang's older ships at Vermilion if they had massed fire. That said, the Leda class cruisers would have been superior to the existing cruiser in just about all characteristics, though they would still have been cruisers so would presumably still not be for straight slugging matches against Imperial battleships. If they were concentrated into groups they would probably have greater effect than if they were sprinkled throughout the fleet. Ultimately I still think only a small number could be made within the time constraints of the story due to the need for mass retooling of shipyards. The same goes for the Triglav. The Ajax class took 12 to 18 months per ship and that is with a planned production plan with extensive automation and modular parts for a class that would be effectively the standard flagship class for the entire Star Fleet. The first Triglav was a test completed in 797 so even if the Star Fleet orders more right after I do not see any following ships being completed til 798 or 799 at earliest. I would also think there would be a similar political debate about spending on what might appear luxury projects with uncertain cost-benefit ratios or projects with returns only in the future vs known benefit of producing more of the proven older designs. These projects could also arguably be viewed as another example of the bloating and rampant spending of the Alliance military. Iracundus 07:19, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

This is yet another thing that shows that, like David Weber and his Honor Harrington stories, Tanaka was pretty one-sided in the Lucky breaks each side had. Once in power, Lohengramm never had any money problems, never had social problems, never had drains of any kind, even though they'd been through a civil war themselves, and even though 80% AND a major fortress had been destroyed at Eight Iserlohn. Despite these things, Lohengramm was able to fully finance, again without any drain that we could see. 180,000 warships, with almost 40,000 support ships and no drain. Their supply lines get savaged, one fleet is almost destroyed, two more damaged, and no drain. And even after all of that, you can see that Lohengramm can still spend on new warship designs, and there's never a hint that this is frivolous, even though by that point, the beaten Alliance wasn't strong enough to make such new construction necessary. Even though the Alliance's economy is stated to be nearly the equal of the Empire despite all of the problems, the Financial drains are huge, there's personnel shortages that don't even make sense (I never bought the plot point about a 13 bllion population unable to keep 60 million in the field and even if I did, how come the Empire doesn't even seem to feel ANY drain?). One-sided, entirely.

And even the social aspects were one-sided, with democracy being much more often derided than despotism, to the point that even Yang gushing over Reinhard's New Empire, and admitting that its almost perfect, and those protecting democracy pretty much saying 'Man, what a rotten system we're protecting' over and over.

Well, then, it seems to me that the only way to have an Alliance Intelligence operation (probably having Bagdash in it), managing to find the money the High Nobles hid away, and transfer those funds to the Alliance treasury. Would that help? FPA Forever

In the original timeline, much of the Empire's locked up wealth was released with the confiscation of the nobles' estates, but even then if you do a ship count, the numbers gradually taper down near the end of the series (the Imperial forces at the Battle of Shiva are about half that of the Battle of the Corridor) and Oberstein criticizes Reinhard's repeated expeditions for the sake of honor as being a drain on the treasury and a waste of lives. While there are a few new flagships, the New Galactic Empire also never puts a new mass production design into service in the course of the story. Reinhard's large fleet sizes were also possible because the Lippstadt League's forces defected rather than being destroyed or damaged, meaning those standardized ships could be absorbed directly into the Reinhard's fleets. The whole talk of building two fortresses on either end of Fezzan for example I took to be more of a paper exercise and it is not stated whether they were actually built. I doubt they would be given Hildegard is in control at the end and given the lack of need for such massive military expenditure in a time of peace.In summary, I think Reinhard's ability to field such massive fleets was a time limited unsustainable thing, possible only because of the infusion of funds and ships from the defeated Lippstadt nobles, and the shrinking Imperial force sizes near the end show this surplus was being used up faster than new construction was replacing.

As I stated in the above post, I do not think it merely just a matter of cash (and cash is just symbolic representation of the labor and resources of a society. The effect of Spanish New World silver being brought to Europe was inflation not wealth since currency supply had increased while society's true wealth had not) but also one of time. Even if the Alliance puts in orders for new ships, it will take time to retool for mass production, and in the limited time frame of the story, I do not think there is time to produce more than a few ships. Leda II took 15 months to construct versus the 1 to 2 months of the existing cruiser. If these new ships are then sprinkled throughout fleets, then there is I think an insignificant increase in combat power as compared to if they were to be concentrated in a sort of cruiser equivalent to Bittenfeld's Black Lancers. Iracundus 19:18, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Then I guess the FPA Civil War being quite a bit shorter and more of a major stirring of malcontents (since Dwight Greenhill won't participate), while a lack of Westerland (ironically, because of Kircheis) making the Imperial Civil War last longer and being much more costly, would be a better tool to even things out a bit? FPA Forever

Yes, that would be a more subtle way of doing so. If Merkatz and Fahrenheit get a chance to put up more of a fight, and if there is no Westerland, then the Lippstadt forces will end up being more destroyed than surrendered intact, and likewise the wear and tear on Reinhard's forces will be greater. If the Lippstadt cause is not decisively and publically discredited with Westerland, it could also mean there is not the same surge of Imperial enlistment when the Goldenbaum exile government is setup in the Alliance (assuming that still happens in your alternate timeline). It could even mean ironically enough some Lippstadt military forces fleeing into the Alliance with Merkatz. Iracundus 21:57, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

That's a possibility. How many would follow Merkatz, however? And would the Alliance forces countenance a large Imperial force Inside their territory anyway? FPA Forever

One battleship's worth of people followed him in the original timeline, though most of those it seems did not want to join the Goldenbaum Imperial government in exile's cause. I could see a few more staunch Goldenbaum loyalists following Merkatz if there were no Westerland. You are right though in that the Alliance would not be likely to allow such a large armed Imperial force into its territory unless they were disarmed first. Iracundus 15:33, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Then in a drawn-out Imperial Civil War, where Merkatz and Fahrenheit manage to implement their own defensive strategy (due to the High Nobles having lost face a bit and grudgingly letting the two have their way - for now), what losses do you think would each of the main factions get before Lohengramm wins? I was thinking 60% losses for Lippstadt, 20% losses for Lohengramm. Even with Merkatz and Fahrenheit's best efforts, they're facing Lohengramm, Kircheis, Mittermyer and Reuentahl. 3 to 1 loss ratios would be the best I think they could manage. As for the ships accompanying Merkatz into exile... would 2000 be too many? Thoughts? FPA Forever

Merkatz and Fahrenheit both wanted to employ a Fabian strategy of avoiding major battle except on their terms and of fighting a long war to strain Reinhard's supply lines. This conflicted with the nobles' desire for glory in battle and they chafed at what they perceived as skulking and cowardice at commoners. Probably Reinhard's second tier admirals (i.e. not Mittermeyer and Reuentahl) would be Merkatz's targets, and the supply lines. 2,000 ships is not too many. It is enough to be significant but not so big that an Alliance numbered fleet could not overwhelm them. Iracundus 21:51, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

In the event of Rebello winning the 797 Élections, would he, being more aware of Lohengramm's cunning than Trunicht, move differently about an Imperial Government-in-Exile? And would Merkatz's group blowing Geiesburg Fortress up as a last gesture of deviance change a lot to Lohengramm's warplans? FPA Forever

There are more and more maybe's and if's depending on where you go with the story. Either the Imperial government in exile is still accepted into the Alliance, which then gives a reason for Reinhard to launch renewed attacks on the Alliance, or it is rejected and stays in Fezzan, in which case Reinhard has reason to attack Fezzan. If the Alliance still acceptes the exile government, if the Lippstadt cause is not decisively discredited with a Westerland equivalent, then there may not be as big support and mobilization by the Empire's population in favor of Reinhard. Either way, I see Geiersburg Fortress as essentially superfluous as it is a fortress, with no permanent civilian population, and therefore its destruction would make little difference to warplans aside from removing the option of making it mobile. Sure, its spectacular destruction can be viewed as demoralizing and drained popular support in the Empire away from an immediate renewed war with the Alliance in the OTL at least until the Imperial government in exile gave new motivation, but I do not see its presence or absence really changing the overall direction of how things go, just what form events take. 09:25, 9 September 2014 (UTC)