Talk:Fourth Battle of Tiamat

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Date of battle

Note to whoever: According to the diagram of the Iserlohn Corridor shown in 'The Battle of Astarte', this battle took place during September 795 UC (486 IC / 3595 CE). (The Battle of Legnica, which preceded it, occurred on 22 August.)  ♥ kine @ 19:27, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Exposed Fleet

Pretty big suspension of disbelief needed here. Any fleet commander today would simply have shot down Reinhard's ships. FPA Forever

I would say this is debatable, since while Reinhard himself is in favour of sacrificing himself, his subordinates refused to do so simply because they believed he was worth more than just a complete victory in a frontier battle. In addition, the other Imperial fleets appeared to be too far away or disorganised to inflict the killing blow as well. Glacierfairy 06:49, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
I think he's talking about the initial starboard turn in front of the Alliance fleet, before the battle wa s joined. In any event, such a thing wouldn't occur today, so we have no idea how a modern commander would react. That Alliance commanders are, for the most part, just as incompetent as their Imperial counterparts is a major plot point at the beginning of the series and is highlighted again and again. Vympel 06:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
No, we know how a modern commander would react: he'd have ordered his ships to shoot as basic military common sense. Its my fault. Sometimes, I try to put too much realism in what I keep forgetting is still a sort of Epic Piece, a Space Opera. Its not always supposed to make sense. FPA Forever
Modern naval warfare would never see that situation arise to begin with, because the mechanics of battle are completely different. More meaningfully, you can't say with confidence how a naval commander on the other side would react when presented with an enemy who - in general terms - appears to do something so foolhardy that it defies basic military logic. Feints, deliberate shows of weakness, and seemingly nonsensical tactical moves are a common part of deception in war. Also, please always remember to sig your posts with four tilde signs. If it wasn't for the recent changes log I'd have no idea who I was even talking to. Vympel 14:46, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
I can say with confidence that at least one commander out of all of them would have fired on Reinhard. If it defied logic so much, why is it crystal clear that Yang, had he commanded the 2nd, would certainly have fired and pretty much obliterated the exposed forces? As much as I like Yang, its hard for me to think that only ONE flag-level officer saw fit to fire on a ridiculously exposed enemy. In fact, the gamble was so huge and so near-suicidal that Reinhard himself swore he'd never try it again. FPA Forever
The Alliance fleets still had discipline at that time. Opening fire without being given the order from above was a flaw seen during the 1st Battle of Rantemario. We also see this from the Imperial side during the Battle of Arlesheim, which spoils the original Imperial plan. Before someone comments about initiative, the whole point was the Alliance and Empire had ossified into systems that discouraged disobedience and standing out from the crowd. Iracundus 21:23, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
A fair point, there. But, to me, and much like the way Yang's fleet managed to encircle the 11th Fleet without it really moving to counter it, it doesn't entirely make sense. And thats okay. Like most novels and most movies, some things aren't supposed to make total sense. To me, those instances are more like 'Yeah, wouldn't happen so cleanly, but, hey, I'll bite.' Both instances are, I think, moments where we're supposed to see that Yang and Lohengramm are a clear cut above the rest of the officers of the time.
Still, if Bewcock had been there, chances are that he would have fired on the passing fleet¸(Yes, its Reinhard, but even Reinhard acknowledged that Bewcock was truly first-rate). I wonder if, given the ossified nature aforementionned above, if he'd have received flak from Lobos by firing on his own initiative? FPA Forever
In the Battle of Van-Fleet, he took action while his fleet was separated without directly informing Lobos and talked about how he struggles with the command hierarchy because they look down on him, because he worked his way up from a gunner position. However taking the initiative and not informing when you are operating as a detachment, and actually breaking fire discipline during a battle I would see as 2 quite different things. Iracundus 02:16, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Conversation line reset, because that many colons is annoying. The 11th Fleet not moving to counter the encirclement made perfect sense to me - Legrange was taken by surprise in the flank and had his fleet cut in two before he could do anything about it. Complete tactical surprise. He was forced to react the entire battle. And he also didn't have anyone like Fischer. Yang gets more of a pass at 4th Tiamat, where the Ulysses somehow manages to avoid destruction by 12 fast battlehips and makes it under the Brunhild without being noticed or getting fired upon. Vympel 05:57, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I would imagine the 11th Fleet was like Grand Duke Herbert's fleet at Dagon, and contracted into a defensive but immobile stance, that ultimately only delayed the end. Iracundus 06:17, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Fair's fair, I agree with most of what's been said here, but I simply don't believe Reinhard could have passed in front of 30,000 ships without even one shot being taken at a completely naked enemy. Nor do I believe it possible that Yang that only officer of Flag Rank - is Commodore flag-ranked in the FPA? - who actually thought it might be a good idea to fire at an enemy passing right in front of them. Yes, its the story, and I accept that. But I don't accept it as realistic. Same for several other things that both Yang and Reinhard did. Its exaggerated to make it look cool, like... Mission Impossible.
Note that this is, and will remain, only my opinion. :) FPA Forever
Yang was serving as a staff officer and did not have command authority to order anything. The orange kerchief on the front of Alliance uniforms denotes having command. There were 3 numbered fleets on the Alliance side in that battle, so 3 total individuals, plus Lobos with that kind of authority to open fire. While there were almost certainly commanders of individual squadrons within these fleets, I don't get the impression they had been given permission yet to fire at will, so it comes down to those handful of individuals at the top. Iracundus 14:26, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
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