Talk:Ajax

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Content 'back-up'

This is a 'back-up' i guess of some of the content that was formerly on this page:

==Mechanical details==
Length: 1179 metres
Width: 172 metres
Height: 358 metres
Armament: 32 forward cannons; 54 port cannons; 54 starboard cannons.
Crew:

I haven't been able to confirm any of the above — in fact the sprite guy's Web site directly contradicts it — so i'm removing it for now. If we can get specific confirmation and citation of this, please re-add.

The ''Ajax'' was one of the Alliance fleet flagships in the latter days of their war against the [[Galactic Empire]], under the command of {{rank|fpa|vice admiral}} [[Paetta]].

Was it Paetta's? From Vympel's talk page, it seems like this is unconfirmed. For now i'm going to stick with what we absolutely know, and if anyone can prove it went to Paetta please re-add this.

Few combat records exist, but it is probably that the ''Ajax'' survived the war up to the end, though there is no information as to whether or not the crew chose to surrender, or die fighting, after the FPA leadership surrendered.

This part is pure speculation and/or redundancy (i prefer not to state in articles that 'few records exist' about things since it's obvious from our lack of information), so i've removed it as well.  ♥ kine @ 05:36, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Licensed Sources

It would be interesting to see what we know about this ship purely from other ships based on it. The article on Shiva indicates that the prototype hulls were around by 780 UC, but by the time of the series, was already being considered for replacement by the Triglav-class. The design itself was preceded by Hyperion's generation, but was already the standard flagship type in service with most fleets by UC 796. It was already being widely modified as evidenced by the various configurations seen in service, the most common ones seeming to be range-enhanced models like Perun, Quetzlcoatl, and Rio Grande.

I do wonder about its listed primary armament, however, since the Cu Chulainn article notes that its simplified and reduced armament was 30 cannons, compared to a standard Ajax-class. Cu Chulainn was one of the earlier ships of this class, having been commissioned in 782 UC; the more common 40 cannon ships have commissioning dates in the mid 780s. Of course, the sources do seem to conflict on other points. Just a few things I noticed, since this ship, despite being the progenitor of the others, has surprisingly little information available. The one092001 21:21, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Probably what happened is that the armament was considered finalised on the Patoroklos rather than the Ajax - the Ajax does have a distinctly 'prototype' vibe about it, given the exposed internal structure on the prow (where there really should be two additional cannons) and what not. Vympel 05:15, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Much of what we know about the Ajax class is derived from the latter ships in the class. From looking at all the various FFC and Databook entries together, it appears the Alliance wanted a common line of flagships for ease of construction and maintenance, from which further individual modifications could be made. The FFC seems to portray each numbered fleet as having some say in how it wished to take things with its flagship, so there seems to be some variation in individual fleet doctrine. Overall it seems the flagships have a much shorter lifespan than the mass production class, which makes sense within the LOGH paradigm where the flagships appear to serve as the field test prototypes of new technologies before widespread dissemination. It does appear that by the 790's, it was about time for a new generation of ships, and ships like the Triglav showed that the Alliance was looking at more radically different designs, though ultimately these plans were curtailed by resource limitations and military defeat. Compared to the Brünhild, the Alliance's designs in curved armor, such as the Leda II, are much more modest and more evolutionary rather than revolutionary, though again this might be a constraint of limited budget and resources. Iracundus 10:23, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Cu Chulainn is the second-oldest ship of the class that I can find listed (others may be older but don't have commissioning dates). She's definitely much older than the Patroclus-subclass, but still notes that 30 cannons were a step down from the baseline. The new info added for Maurya also indicates that the standard Ajax-class is supposed to have 20 cannons per side, while other sources seem to indicate more than three times that number (usually 70+). The production rate seems somewhat inconsistent, since there are a slew of ships commissioned between 782-788 of this class, then none until Leonidas II in 796. By this time, Airget Iamh had already been put into service, and Triglav was in the yards, so I imagine Leonidas II and other late models may have been produced as emergency measures from a known design until the Triglav-class was ready for production. Even 'late-model' units like Rio Grande and Diomedes don't show complete standardization, since Rio Grande has longer-ranged cannons while Diomedes seems to be a standard Patroclus-subclass. Which leaves aside oddities like Krishna and Bang-goo, the latter of which at least is clearly part of the Ajax generation (rather than the Hyperion generation like Massasoite). The one092001 00:26, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

In the service histories for many of the flagships, there are refits that often include upgrading of the secondary armament. This may account for the discrepancy over the mention of a "standard" Ajax class having 20 cannons per side. Also it is obvious that the more extreme firepower variants like Krishna and Bang-goo diverged quite far from the baseline. Incidentally if you look at the entry for Diomedes it shows a good view showing its front weapons section, which has greater similarities to Rio Grande and Achilleus in that it is elongated compared to the stubbier Patoroklos. Finally, Airget Iamh was an experimental ship for Triglav which probably did not start construction til about 794 or 795 UC, given how it is described that Ajax class flagships took from 12-18 months to construct (3 times longer compared to the standard battleships). So ultimately we have a baseline common flagship class, more like a template, off which individual modifications and more extreme variations could be built off of. Iracundus 08:50, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm a bit cautious about using direct screenshots from the OVA itself as a comparison, mostly because the relative size and aspects of the ships seems to change over time, from one OVA to another, and even from one angle of view to another. For instance, later in the series, we see Ajax-class ships often being presented with absolutely enormous engine blocks, much taller than the rest of the ship, whereas in earlier episodes, we see those same ships (namely Rio Grande) as having an engine block of the same height as the forward command area. The last shot of Rio Grande, while heavily damaged, reverts to the previous proportions of an engine block that would be flush with the command area. (There's even a shot in one episode that shows Hyperion as having five columns of cannons, for a total of 40, rather than her normal 32.) In some of the comparative profile images floating around the web, Diomedes and Achilleus seem to be half-way between Rio Grande and Patroclus, with a longer bow than the latter but a shorter bow than the former.

Obviously, Ajax is the progenitor of most of the 'current' flagships, aside from those of the preceding generation like Hyperion and those of the succeeding generation like Airget Iamh and Triglav. Krishna and Bang-goo both have many of the common aspects of the generation in their designs. I'm simply trying to collect all of the information we know about this progenitor based on what's been said of the later ships of the class, although the diversity of licensed works and occasional inconsistency in the OVA itself cause problems. Given this, perhaps it would be good to create a dedicated page for ships of this class in general, since information about the class as a whole shouldn't belong on this ship's own page, and there are already pages for the standard warship classes of the Alliance and Imperial navies. The one092001 23:38, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's the nature of the medium unfortunately (i.e. ships looking different) - but its rare that the ship appearance changes terribly drastically (apart from varying numbers of cannons like in the Hyperion example, or even more frequently the Beowulf, which shows up with nine instead of 6 forward guns several times!). As for a page on the entire class of ship, I guess it depends on how much unique information you can incorporate there. So far all the Ajax-type entires with completed licensed material sections (thanks to Iracundus) seem to be mostly unique to that type. I don't really have any problem with a little duplication of information either, if it legitimately applies. Personally I've been thinking about getting rid of some of the warship pages that don't seem to serve much of a purpose, like the basic cruiser / battleship / destroyer pages (i.e. not the ones we've been doing lately, they're fantastic and I'm really happy with them), or the Alliance vessels and Imperial vessels pages, as not really adding much. Vympel 00:47, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

We've got a decent amount of information overall to write on the class as a whole. Ajax is the class leader and was being developed before 780 (since Shiva uses one of the Ajax prototype hulls). The Ajax-class seems to be a completely new generation of flagship, replacing the older Hyperion generation in main flagship roles. The design was modular, with production becoming easier and cheaper over time, and benefited from an influx of technology from Phezzan. Most ships seem to have incorporated at least some form of modification, and generally speaking, most of the design modifications focused on increasing long-range firepower. If Maurya is to be taken as indicative of the design process, many ships were designed with input from the unit they were to be attached to. Production continued for nearly two decades, from at least 780 to at least 796, and the class was expected to be replaced by the Triglav generation. There's more, but these are just the general trends. The one092001 02:29, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Don't forget the red fuel scoops, which seem to have been an exclusive Ajax class feature (or at least flagship if Hyperion had some) until the Leda II. The Ajax class was really a realization of the Alliance ideal for modularity and ease of production. I think there is enough I think to go on for a class page. As for the general Alliance and Imperial vessel pages, I think those might still be worthwhile if there is stuff about the general design trends and doctrine, such as for example the Imperial ships going for smaller number of high calibre guns, while the Alliance went for larger numbers of smaller calibre guns. There can also be some description and discussion of the trends from 640 UC to later generations. These could perhaps be integrated into pages for the Reichsflotte and the Free Planets Star Fleet (which already has a page), to provide a more central hub of information for easy access. Iracundus 08:45, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually looking at the Databook and the FFC entries on the Leonidas and Leonidas II there is a discrepancy, or retcon. The FFC places construction of both ships at 791 UC (as opposed to the 796 UC given in the older Databook), as part of an experiment in evaluating the cost and time savings of manufacturing 2 completely identical units of the Ajax class simultaneously. Iracundus 11:51, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

The Boussard ram scoops may have been introduced in the Hyperion generation, since Hyperion and Massasoit both have them, but earlier flagships from Ashbey's era seem to lack them. Massasoit herself may be the equivalent of Airget Iamh for the older generation, bridging the gap between the Hyperion type, with flush hulls aside from the central bulge, to the Ajax type, with a more modular design. In any event, does anyone want to start the article, if we're reasonably agreed to it? I imagine it should also be accompanied by a clean-up or replacement of the current 'Command Battleship' article. The one092001 20:57, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Start a new one at your leisure, I'll consider whether the 'Command Battleship' article should remain after, I reckon. Vympel 22:34, 1 February 2012 (UTC)