Talk:Alliance–Imperial War

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Contents 1 Renaming 2 Nomenclature 3 Expansion of Article 4 "FPA" 5 Battle of Lügen 6 Notable Battles 6.1 The Fourth Battle of Tiamat 6.2 The Battle of Astate 7 Invasion of the Empire

Renaming

So I'm not very online these days, but I happened to check reddit today, and happened to see a thread on the name of this war... so here I am. Basically, I'd like to suggest another change to the name, simply because "Imperial" doesn't seem to match with "Alliance" as well as it did with FPA. So I'd suggest either "Alliance-Empire War" or "Empire-Alliance War." The former is alphabetical, which is nice, but I think the latter rolls off the tongue a bit better, and grants slightly more prominence to the Empire, which I think is appropriate given that they're both the aggressors in the conflict and the victors. The latter would seem to me to be more appropriate as an in-universe name, but I do think our purposes here are primarily to be *descriptive* first and foremost. What do y'all think? Canary 17:40, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with the renaming, but I'm torn over the order. I'd prefer the alphabetical order, so "Alliance-Empire War". But the Japanese Wikipedia describes the war as "the war between the Galactic Empire and the Free Planets Alliance" (which is the Japanese name we use here by the way), in other words, "Empire-Alliance War" in short. Glacierfairy 00:26, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm torn, too. I suppose parity with the Japanese should be the deciding factor? Well, no need to change it right away, we can wait a bit and see if anyone else wants to weigh in. I do think "Alliance-Empire" rolls off the tongue a bit better when spoken aloud, though, so.... Canary 17:27, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Nomenclature

I'm writing this up as much as a reminder to myself as well as a suggestion for everyone else. What is the Alliance-Imperial War called in the actual OVAs/novels? Keep an eye out when reading/watching/rereading/rewatching. I vaguely recall a few different terms from both the Alliance and Imperials, all of which deserve mention on the page, and probably some redirect pages, too. I'm also a little concerned about the actual nomenclature we're using, but maybe that's just the historian in my that's so used to hyphenated war names involving at least one noun beginning with a consonant--the Vowel-Vowel War just sounds off to me.Canary 22:23, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't seem to recall them calling it anything beyond maybe "the war". Although I am not even sure the Imperials even do that since technically according to the Empire's ideology, it is just a prolonged rebellion. Iracundus 09:46, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm probably going to wait until the SentaiFilmworks release before I re-watch the OVAs (such a monumental endeavor, that is) but it's definitely something I'll be keeping an eye out. I have some vague recollection of some fancy, high-highfalutin name the Empire used. What's equally curious is what the FPA calls the war, due to the fact that for most of the history of the war, the FPA was largely on the defensive--the Empire attacked them, so the FPA was basically fighting for survival, for it's continued autonomy... but then that changed when they went on the offensive. Canary 20:49, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Expansion of Article

I think this should be expanded as much as possible, since the war is central to the plot. Without the war, few or none of the events in LOGH would have happened. FPA Forever

I am actually quite interested in this prospect, but it may be sometime before I feel I can undertake a massive edit to turn this article into something like the World War II article in Wikipedia. For now though, I think the collage of images in the World War II article's infobox is a nice concept we can emulate here. So I was wondering which six images would be most representative of the Alliance–Imperial War? My personal choices will be one from the Battle of Dagon, Second Battle of Tiamat, a shot of the ground battle in Van-Fleet 4-2, Seventh Battle of Iserlohn, Battle of Vermilion and the signing of the Treaty of Ba‘alat. Glacierfairy 14:26, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

I've removed the notable battles section. I believe this text is all duplicated on the specific page for each battle. If so, we can delete it here. I think, at max, each "battle" mentioned on a war page ought have no more than 2 or 3 sentences of description.

I would help out with this if you guys still want to do it. Goldenbaum Loyalist 22:10, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your offer! It's rather embarrassing that nothing's been done for almost two years. >.< But I'm sure we'll get to it sooner or later, so keep an eye out for it. Glacierfairy 00:21, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Maybe we can use a a sandbox article to work on it, then copy and paste the final result onto the actual article itself. Goldenbaum Loyalist 01:08, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

The collage you uploaded looks pretty good, by the way. Goldenbaum Loyalist 13:59, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! Glacierfairy 17:20, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I finished the expansion of the article, though feel free to look through it and see if there need to be any corrections or adjustments. —Goldenbaum Loyalist 19:17, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Excellent work and good job! Glacierfairy 04:44, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

"FPA"

I think we need Rudolf von Goldenbot to change all the "FPA" stuff to Alliance. I believe kine has said in the past that she likes Alliance better, and I think it meshes with "Imperial" so much better, too.Vympel 03:56, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, i've def been meaning to do that, but it's mentioned in so many articles that i've been putting it off out of nervousness. I'll get to it eventually :(  ♥ kine @ 10:23, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

That'd be kind of like changing ever reference to the "USA" to "America." So... that's a point against it, but on the other hand Alliance jives more with the Star Wars reference thing, so I'm good either way.Canary 01:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Just an update on this, anyone know how to do it? Everytime I see FPA I frown. Alliance just sounds/looks so much better. Vympel 02:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I'd like to know the current status of this issue. If there is still no problem for the name change, I can change it (and associated articles) manually. Any opinions? Glacierfairy 04:38, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I favor Alliance. Iracundus 09:29, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Still in Alliance camp myself too. Vympel 13:07, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I think our de facto policy is to use 'Alliance' as the preferred shortening of the full name. The abbreviation 'FPA', whilst straight-forward, never actually appears in the series, to my knowledge. I don't have my bot set up right now, but feel free to replace any instances you find manually, if you like.  ♥ kine @ 01:36, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Battle of Lügen

Re: this battle, I think it could be argued that the 10th Fleet lost a lot more than 50%. Whilst Ulanhu's No. 1 tells him "half" of their ships managed to escape, this is after he's already told him that they've lost 40% of their force. So really, it may be that half of the 60% left from the original managed to get away? Thoughts? I'm not sure how to interpret it (in the past I've interpreted it as 50% losses) Vympel 09:41, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't have the episode in front of me, but from what you've said i have to agree with what you're thinking. It'd be 70% loss  ♥ kine @ 10:23, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

The episode I feel is somewhat inconclusive because when Greenhill reports about the various fleets he says the 10th fleet escaped with over 50% losses...which doesn't exactly settle the question about is it approximately 50% or 70%, but I am happy to go with 70% pending more definitive confirmation. Iracundus 23:29, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Notable Battles

The Fourth Battle of Tiamat

The Free Planets Alliance's fourth attempt to capture the Galactic Empire's Iserlohn Fortress began with several fleets congregating in the Tiamat Starzone. Once there, a single fleet was dispatched directly toward Iserlohn to scout the area and test the fortresses defenses. This fleet was intercepted by Reinhard von Lohengramm's expeditionary fleet, and lured into the upper atmosphere of the gas giant, Legnica. There, Reinhard managed to outwit the FPA fleet's admiral, and obliterate the the FPA fleet.

Undaunted by their devastating defeat at Legnica, the Free Planets Alliance chose to continue with their plans to assault Iserlohn Fortress. The Imperial fleets stationed at Iserlohn, under the command of Gregor von Muckenberger, sallied forth to meet the FPA fleet head on: Reinhard von Lohengramm's fleet was positioned at the left wing of the formation. Determined to be rid of the "Admiral of the Skirts" once and for all, Muckenburger ordered Reinhard's fleet to advance on the FPA fleets head-on as a diversionary measure: the rest of the Imperial Fleet would maintain is position, meaing Reinhard's smaller fleet would be annihilated by the vastly more numerous FPA fleets. Complying with his orders, Reinhard advanced his fleet toward the enemy formation alone. Rather than hopen fire on them once he was in range, however, Reinhard had his entire fleet turn 90 degrees to the right. Reinhard's fleet then slowly sailed in front of the FPA fleet, utterly exposed. Unable to comprehend an enemy intentially making itself so vulnerable, the FPA fleet commanders refused to attack Reinhard's forces, believing his maneuver to be some sort of elaborate trick. Their inaction allowed Reinhard to reposition his forces along the left flank of the FPA fleet.

By the time they realized their error, the main Imperial Fleet had entered combat range, forcing the FPA invasion force to deal with the main Imperial force, ignoring Reinhard's fleet. The Imperial fleet was roughly equal in size to the Free Planets Alliance fleet, turning the battle into a violent brawl. Realizing he had been outsmarted by Reinhard, Muckenburger refused to ask Reinhard's fleet to attack: Muckenburger believed that Reinhard was similarly petty, and would not move to aid the besieged Imperial forces unless ordered to do so.

Reinhard, however, realized that the gratitude of the thousands of soldiers whose lives he could save by attacking the FPA flank far outweighed the ire he would earn from embarassing Muckenburger. He ordered his fleet to attack, and in moments the FPA Fleet had been thoroughly routed.

At this point, the FPA forces realized they had no choice but to retreat. They determined to launch a diversionary attack directly against Iserlohn Fortress, to draw off the bulk of the Imperial fleet and buy enough time for them to escape. Commodore Yang Wenli volunteered to lead the diversionary attack: he took a single destroyer with a skeleton crew along with 4 drone ships straight for Iserlohn. Using sensor decoys, Yang Wenli was able to fool the Imperial Fleet into thinking he was leading a fleet of several thousand warships toward the undefended fortress. Muckenberger immediately ordered his fleets to turn around and head back to defend Iserlohn. Fortunately, Reinhard von Lohengramm immediately realized the FPA fleet was a decoy operation, and managed to reveal this fact to Muckenburger. This prompted Muckenburger to resume the attack on the FPA forces, preventing them from retreating.

Determined to save the lives of his fellow soldiers, Yang Wenli flew his small destroyer straight into the heart of the Imperial Fleet. There, he assumed a position immediately beneath the Brunhild and did nothing. In an instant, he could fire the destroyers dorsal cannons and destroy the Brunhild: he had effectively taken Reinhard von Lohengramm hostage. Reinhard ordered his forces to disregard his own safety and open fire on Yang Wenli's ship, but they refused. Both the Imperial fleet and the FPA fleet refused to open fire on each other until they had passed. Once the FPA fleet was in a position to safely retreat, Yang Wenli's destroyer followed. Reinhard, determining that the battle was over, ordered his fleet to stand down, allowing Yang Wenli to escape the battlefield.

After the Fourth Battle of Tiamat, Reinhard von Lohengramm was granted a special commendation, and firmly established a reputation for himself as a brilliant tactician. Furthermore, Reinhard went to lengths to learn the name of the destroyer captain who had managed to open up a path to safety for the retreating FPA forces, while at the same time Yang Wenli had sought out the name of the commander of the white ship. The rivalry between Yang Wenli and Reinhard von Lohengramm that began with this battle would shape and define the history of the galaxy in the years to come.

The Battle of Astate

In Imperial Year 487, an Alliance Fleet attempted to surround and anihilate a much smaller Imperial Fleet, under the command of newly-promoted Imperial Admiral, Reinhard von Lohengramm, in orbit of the planet Astate in the Boden Starzone.

The Alliance fleet was nearly twice the size of the Imperial fleet. Instead of attacking directly, however, the Alliance forces broke apart into three separate fleets, of roughly 13,000 warships each. The Alliance fleets then attempted to encircle Reinhard's fleet of only 20,000 warships, and minimize their losses by attacking the Imperial Fleet from three different angles simultaneously.

Reinhard von Lohengramm saw through the rather simple strategy immediately, and ordered his fleet to advance toward one of the Alliance Fleets before the trap could be implemented. Attacking the a single fleet while the other two were out of range, Reinhard would hold the numerical advantage. He easily anihilated the Alliance's Fourth Fleet, under the command of Vice Admiral Pastoll. At this point, Commodore Yang Wenli, a strategeic advisor to Admiral Paeta of the Alliance's Second Fleet, recommended the Second Fleet immediately move to join up with the Sixth fleet, and then move to attack the Imperial Fleet. Admiral Paeta refused, opting instead to move in to support the besieged Fourth Fleet.

By the time Admiral Paeta's Second Fleet made it to the Fourth Fleet, it had been all-but-obliterated, and Reinhard von Lohengramm's forces had already begun their assault on the Sixth Fleet. The Sixth Fleet was completely wiped out. Reinhard von Lohengramm then attacked the Fourth Fleet. Admiral Paeta was severely injured early in the battle, and Commodore Yang Wenli assumed command of the Fourth Fleet.

Yang Wenli's ordered the Fourth Fleet to attack the Imperial forces at their own discretion, and after a bit of steady fighting, Reinhard von Lohengramm ordered his fleet to take a spindle formation, and break through the enemy's lines. Yang Wenli took advantage of this: while the Imperial Fleet broke through, the Alliance ships pretended to be routed, splitting into two groups which then assaulted the Imperial fleet from behind. Reinhard was then forced to turn to attack, resulting in a massive ring formation between the two fleets--like two snakes devouring each other from their tails. Unwilling to waste time and lives in a pointless battle of attrition, Reinhard retreated from the Boden Starzone, allowing Yang Wenli to do the same.

2,450,000 Imperial soldiers survived the Battle of Astate. The Alliance survivors numbered 4,060,000. However, the number of Imperial casualties came to only 150,000, while the Alliance had 1,500,000 casualties--ten times as many. Though the Battle of Astate was an enormous loss for Free Planets Alliance, Yang Wenli's successful retreat allowed the Alliance leadership to successfully portray the battle as a "victory," and to name Yang Wenli, already the "Hero of El Facil," as the "Hero of Astate."

Invasion of the Empire

Should we make a separate article for the Alliance's attempted invasion of the Empire? We have articles for the individual battles, but we do not have one for the specific operation. We do have other articles like this one, and the one for Operation Ragnarök, so perhaps we should make one for this specific campaign as well. We could give it a generic name along the lines of "Alliance-Imperial War", such as "Invasion of the Empire" or "Defense of the Empire"? —Goldenbaum Loyalist 22:28, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

It is possible, just that I do not know of any specific names used for this operation. The Japanese Wikipedia article on LoGH simply listed it as 帝国領侵攻, the same as 'Invasion of the Imperial Territory', while the LoGH Encyclopaedia listed it as 帝国領進攻作戦, which basically means 'Invasion of the Imperial Territory Operation'. Glacierfairy 01:11, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Very well, that's why I was saying we could use a generic simple name. —Goldenbaum Loyalist 17:31, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree about making a separate article for the invasion. I realized when I made edits to the article about Amritsar that most of the commentary I made referenced the overall invasion, which involved more moving parts and more casualties. Not to mention, the strategic situation was settled long before the actual battle began. Having a new article would also allow us to discuss the Alliance battle plan, and its holes and limitations. As for the name, for example, Wikipedia's article about the Invasion of Iraq is simply called 2003 invasion of Iraq, so I doubt we need spend too much energy on thinking of a better title. Swordfish36 17:46, 1 October 2017 (UTC)