Talk:Free Planets Alliance

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Outclassed?

Outclassing means better quality. How did Bewcock's forces, which put up a tremendous fight - and even gave the Imperials more than a few moments of scare - with 20,000 to 23,000 ships against something like 100,000 ships - get outclassed? Outnumbered, I get. Outclassed? I think Bewcock and Yang both completely outclassed the Imperials on Mar-Adetta AND the War in the Corridor. FPA Forever

As for Bewcock outclassing the Imperials at Mar-Adetta, I think that's an enormous exaggeration. Its not like Reuenthal and Reinhard weren't calling out what the enemy would do throughout the battle, and Reinhard personally was never in any real danger, and he acted accordingly. It was a completely doomed effort (and a gigantic waste of resources, really).Vympel 03:31, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps, but given the odds, and given how well he fought, to say Bewcock was outclassed was also an exaggeration, no? And what do you think Bewcock should have done instead of fighting at Mar-Adetta? FPA Forever

Bewcock like Merkatz are examples of veterans of the old order. They are experienced and competent, but ultimately rather conventional. Like Merkatz, Bewcock had fought all his life for the old system and could not see himself abandoning that system, even if merging forces with Yang might have yielded better results. This may be a bit of Japanese cultural legacy to do with the whole concept of eternal loyalty to one's lord or government, even when that government or lord is incompetent or destroyed. The entire Battle of Mar-Adetta was really a long shot for the Alliance, but I would say the destruction of one of the escorting battleships next to the Brünhild showed Bewcock had done better than even Reinhard expected. You can see the growing concern of the Imperial commanders as the battle progresses. Iracundus 05:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Generally speaking, it would be better to say the Alliance in general was outclassed, rather than Bewcock in particular. Admiral for Admiral, I don't think Bewcock was a match for any of Reinhard's top-tier vassals - Reuenthal, Mittermeyer, Müller. Bewcock's task was also made much easier because he had no concern for achieving any sort of decisive victory - all he needed to do was destroy Brünhild, without concern for lives lost or their fate after it was done. Bewcock definitely did better than Reinhard expected (even allowing for the geographical advantage, as they repeatedly note), but Reinhard never seemed terribly concerned at Bewcock's progress, even as enemy fire came close to the supreme flagship. Vympel 05:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Then would it be fair to say that the Yang Fleet outclassed Reinhard's Imperial Fleet during the Battle of the Corridor? Admiral for Admiral, Yang was better than even the top-tier Admirals, and arguably better than Reinhard himself. And his 20,000-ships fleet did manage to fight a 150,000-ships fleet on equal. Now imagine Yang with twice the number of ships. Imagine what the Magician could have managed. Boggles the mind. FPA Forever

Yang and Reinhard fought on equal terms at the Corridor, with the proviso that Yang's choice of battlefield (which he called "shamelessly hiding in a hole") meant that the Imperial fleet couldn't bring its numerical strength to bear, so its not like Yang's 20,000 ships fought anywhere approaching that number of ships all at once. Remember also that the one time Yang got close enough to hit the Brunhild (because of Reuenthal's miscalculation) Reinhard insantly determined what was holding Yang's formation and collapsed it, throwing Yang into retreat. If Reinhard hadn't fallen sick right then and there, Reinhard probably would've pushed him all the way back to Iserlohn. Vympel 06:22, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, enough. Reinhard and his Fleet are perfect in every sense, in every battle, in every way. Nobody outshines, nobody outclasses them, as boring as that is. I get it. I'm sadly getting kinda glad Reinhard died pitifully of sickness, and his Fleet became ready for nothing but gradual peacetime downsizing. I'm sorry if this sounds bitter, but every single time I try to put in a plus on the Alliance side, I get kinda shut down by being told that, actually, the Empire rocked and even Yang didn't measure up. I mean, if YANG doesn't measure up, nothing on the Alliance side measures up to Reinhard von Lohengramm. I surrender. FPA Forever

One thing to remember is Yang's Fleet managed to effectively destroy half the Fahrenheit Fleet, maul the Black Lancers, (Imperial loss total was about 75% of Yang's TOTAL strength) and take relatively light losses even before the main Battle of the Corridor. Reinhard's vanguard by itself outnumbered Yang's forces, but Yang survived, defeated them, and preserved enough strength to then meet the main Imperial force (and kill off Steinmetz in the process). Furthermore, we must bear in mind that at the Battle of Shiva, Julian still had 9,800 ships. That means the Battle of the Corridor only cost about 10,200 ships. That means Yang inflicted disproportionately higher casualties while at the same time preserving a significant fraction of his own forces. Even accounting for the tight constraints of the Corridor, that is a stellar performance when so massively outnumbered.

I would say that like Napoleon by 1812 and 1813, Reinhard was starting to lose a bit of his touch and starting to rely more on massed numbers. This of course could be from his illness progressing but also the other contributing factor may have been the apparent mediocrity of the following generation of Imperial officers, leading to a certain bluntness in Imperial maneuvering and tactics. Of course quantity has a quality of its own. Iracundus 07:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

FPA Forever, I have no idea what the hell you're complaining about. Get a thicker skin, jeez - or better yet, don't identify so closely with a fictional entity like the FPA. Of course, Yang was superior to Reinhard's retainers, as he demonstrated again and again from Armitsar onwards, and I never said the opposite, ever, so your "Reinhard and his fleet are perfect in every sense" is just an incredibly childish strawman. Worse, its just my opinion, and you're bitterly complaining as if I'm holding it out as an objective fact. Not everyone is going to have the same view about things. Deal with it. Vympel 07:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

And now we're off to personal insults? I got, I admit, hot under the collar, but that was only because I felt you were going out of your way to point out how better Reinhard, or his forces, were in the grand scheme of things, which was never the point I was trying to make. I was talking about how well the Alliance fought in its last battle and how I felt it made a very remarkable, high-level last stand. When I said Bewcock had done a good job with the ressources he had, which were few, you replied it was a waste of life - perfectly true, I admit. Then you said he's no match for Reinhard's best admirals. I personally disagree. At Mar-Adetta, they were all there, and they clearly struggled at several points despite huge numerical advantages. Mueller was clearly worried at several points, Mittermyer - with tension and worry clear in his voice - clearly admitted that Bewcock was good. Even Reinhard gripped the arms of his chair in a moment of tension. That was clearly a sign that Reinhard was at least slightly worried about Bewcock's last charge - a charge he managed to carry it while solar winds were buffetting the area and while the enemy seemed unable to do the same. Certainly, desperation helped him. And it was a waste because he didn't achieve his fleet's goal. But I still say it was a showing that equalled that of the likes of Reuentahl or Mittermyer. By the way, the Battle of the Corridor was a waste of lives by Reinhard, who didn't have to fight Yang, only contain him indefinitely. As for the fact that Yang used the terrain to level the playing field, well, I don't see how that takes away from what Yang did at all. Reinhard could allow himself to throw lives away - which is what he did, lets be fair, his tactics were way below Yang's for much of the fight - in a war of attrition. Yang couldn't afford a war of attrition, which he repeatedly told his subordinates, so he resorted to trickery, deceit, and calculations. The fact that, despite enormous differences in numbers, he held back the Imperials for as long as he did is, by itself, proof that he tactically outclassed Reinhard and pretty much the entirety of his elite with a fleet that was largely patched together and held together largely by his reputation and genius. And just you know, your answer, Vympel, wasn't a much more patient one than mine. Practice what you preach. FPA Forever

I'm under no obligation to be patient when the person I'm talking to flips out at the drop of a hat and acts like the whole world is against him purely because someone has a different view. My answer to your question was completely rational and not personal at all, and you acted like I pissed in your cereal. So spare me. As for "they struggled at some points, therefore he was a match for Mittermeyer, Reuenthal, or Müller", that's simply absurd. At Rantemario, Zarnial and Marinetti lost discipline and caused Mittermeyer to pull back temporarily - hey, they gave him difficulty, I guess that means they're a match for Mittermeyer too, right? Nevermind that what makes an Admiral highly skilled is his entire combat record and his achievements, no forget that, apparently now if you can give your betters difficulty in one battle - no matter how transitory (even if its no more than stressing them out!), that automatically makes you as good as them? Bewcock, as Iracundus noted, was a skilled, conventional Admiral. He never pulled off a single meaningful tactical coup or masterful deployment along the lines of Mittermeyer or Reuenthal, and his combat record is quite frankly one of repeated defeats, ameliorated only by his choice of battlefield delaying the inevitable. Further, I never said that Reinhard didn't waste lives at the Corridor, so this seems to be yet another example of taking criticism of someone personally and assuming that its being given whilst advocating for someone else, which is simply nonsense. Vympel 01:13, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, now you're the one who needs to get thicker skin. You're getting more and more personal, to the point of bluntly calling my points nonsense, negating your previous claim that this was only your opinion. Here, you seem intent on saying that you are right, and that I should agree. I don't. As you said yourself, you should deal with the fact that I don't agree with some of what you say. FPA Forever

That I express a view that your opinion is nonsense does not imply that it is anything more than my view. And calling an argument nonsense is not personal. If I said I thought you were an [insert insult here] for holding that opinion, then it would be personal. Vympel 03:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay. How about we stop the argument at that? FPA Forever

As for Reinhard and Yang, Yang using the terrain ala the Spartans at the Battle of Thermopylae doesn't "take away" anything, it merely has to be figured in to any grandiose claims that Yang fought off a fleet of a hundred thosand or so ships when he fought a series of much smaller, localized battles over multiple weeks. Yang *already* tactically outclassed Reinhard at Vermilion, so I have no idea why you think there's an issue about this - what I said, and maintain, is that Reinhard and Yang- not Yang and Reinhard's other admirals, who fight according to their own tactical abilities - fought on equal terms at the Corridor, and that's pretty obvious given the only time Yang fought Reinhard directly, Reinhard threw him back at the drop of a hat before falling ill and calling his own retreat. Vympel 01:23, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, you win. This discussion is closed on my end. FPA Forever

Population

How did the FPA manage to get from 160,000 citizens to 1,500,000,000 in 113 years?!? — 174.91.245.99

I would imagine through major financial incentives for having children. Iracundus 09:12, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

There are a lot of population questions in the series. As far as that particular number, though, i'm not sure where it even comes from. I've just grepped for '1500000000', '1,500,000,000', and '1.5 billion' in CA's subtitle files (for the main OVA), and i got zero results. I've also checked episode 040, and i don't see it mentioned there either. So it's very possible that the number we have is not even correct.

(FWIW though, that is an extraordinary number. It would be something like an 8.44% population growth rate, which is double the highest population growth rate on Earth. If that number really is taken from the series, it's possible someone just did a slight miscalculation: 1.5 million would be about a 2% growth rate, which is what the global rate was in the 1960s, so maybe they accidentally multiplied that by 1000.)

If someone could find a citation for that number, that would be helpful!  ♥ kine @ 09:33, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, there is one number we know for the FPA in UC 640: The soldiers in the FPA Fleet. Its stated in some documents that it was 2,500,000. Now, this is for the 25,000 ships that Lin Pao led, which is fairly certainly every single warship they had - I don't see the FPA being able to afford not sending everything they had back then. Added to that, Admiral Birolinen commanded the supply fleet, and it stands to reason there'd be at least a token military back on Heinessen to make the basic military services work. All in all, its hard to see the military of the time as less than 3 million. These are the values I get when I calculate given percentages by UC 640.

1% - 492,000 (Impossible given the 2.5+ military of the time, and the fact that that era was supposed to be an incredible golden age rivalling the golden age of the Galactic Federation.

2% - 1,282,000 (Same as the 1%)

3% - 4,373,000 (This is a very good growth rate, maybe not the awesome growth the series and novels allude to. Besides, no way the military is 60% or more of the population).

4% - 13,430,000 (Very high growth rate, still hard to believe the military would be such a HUGE chunk of the population (1 soldier in 5 total people, including kids and elders).

5% - 39,371,000 (Pretty much the highest value we got on our dear Earth. Military no less than 7% of the population. BARELY possible if one called up volunteers from everywhere and strained every facet of society to maintain the fleet).

6% - 115,191,000 (Highest value I can see for myself. Military is 2.5% of the population. Possible if they were called up partly as militia to man their carefully-stockpiled warships.)

7% - 339,938,000 (Hard to see this growth rate. Military is clearly possible here.)

8% - 931,658,000 (No way. Just... no way)

8.5% - 1,605,469,000.

So its impossible in my mind that the FPA, even with the best civil aid and endowments, could sustain a 8% to 8.5% growth rate. The best they can come up in my mins would be 5% to 6.5% (40 million to 187 million people).

I have a hard time seeing the population as more than 150 million people by UC 640. Thus, its possible the number was erroneously multiplied by 10.

I agree it is unlikely  ♥ kine @ 18:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

It's unlikely verging on impossible assuming the FPA is an isolated population. Current global growth rate is 1.05%; back during the baby boom it peaked at 1.48%. To have a population of just 1 billion, for example, there would need to be a growth rate of just over 3.2%. Therefore, I think, we must conclude that the FPA population (and infrastructure) must have been significantly bolstered by Imperial defectors/refugees. This might also explain how Phezzan became so powerful--facilitating not just economic movement, but immigration between the two powers as well. Though obviously this is all speculation. That said, can we get a citation for the 150 million on the page proper? Really curious where that number came from. (It would require a growth rate of 2.5%, which is still pretty damned high.) (And, come to think of it, if the Empire was bleeding that many people into the FPA, that would be a very realistic motivation for war--as those who could afford to flee to the FPA would likely represent the more capable/highly educated among the Imperial citizenry, as serfs are unlikely to have been able to easily travel.)Canary 17:35, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Government

During the period between the signing of the Treaty of Ba'alat in May and the outbreak of the second war in November, was the FPA technically a constitutional monarchy? Since they were part of the Empire but as an autonomous region with their own government to manage internal affairs. The subtitles called Lebello a prime minister while calling previous leaders like Trunicht Supreme Council chairmen, and if that was not just a poor translation it is kind of like how the British dominion countries have a PM but recognize the Queen as the head of state. So was Reinhard basically the FPA's official head of state during this time? —Goldenbaum Loyalist 21:27, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

No, I think it is more apt to describe the Alliance during that period as a client state to the Empire, because the Empire did not exert sovereignty over the Alliance until the Edict of the Winter Rose Garden. Rebelo's position is the same as his predecessors, that is, the Chairman of the High Council. The subtitles were misleading in this case. Glacierfairy 02:30, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

The head of state for the Alliance did not change. That is why at the end people like Busias Adoula could refuse to follow the orders of the Kaiser since that position did not exist within the Alliance's government structure. Iracundus 12:46, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Ah, okay. —Goldenbaum Loyalist 17:36, 7 July 2017 (UTC)