Talk:Kubersly

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Coup

I thought the reason he failed to use the 1st Fleet was because he had been shot and presumably still in hospital, and then afterwards presumably under arrest by the coup forces. Bewcock later in season 2 pointed out to the politicians that the presence of the 1st Fleet had not stopped the coup, when they resisted giving the 1st Fleet to Yang to take back to Iserlohn, suggesting the 1st Fleet was in the vicinity of Heinessen. Iracundus 13:42, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, hence my 'presumed' about it. Its stated in the novels that Kubersly had been an effective Fleet Commander in that his job wasn't on the front but rather maintaining the peace effectively inside the Alliance territories. It is also suggested that, because he worked closer to the population centres - instead of away on the front lines - he had a very good reputation and emerged unscathed from the invasion debacle. Still, the moment he got the top job, he likely gave the command of the 1st Fleet over to Paeta. Its very possible, in my mind, that the 1st Fleet was so ineffective because Paeta was still getting his command ready, and later acted with the lack of competence we have come to expect from him. FPA Forever

Indeed, from what I recall, it was noted that his attempted assassination and subsequent hospitalization was the entire reason the coup was able to proceed, since Yang and Bewcock felt rather confident that Kubersly was smart and powerful enough to keep the rogue elements in check. His removal from office and the resulting power vacuum seemed to be exactly what the plotters were looking for, to the point it almost seemed as if they knew about Falk's plan of action. Certainly, he did escape from the invasion debacle as the 1st Fleet was never dispatched. The one092001 00:25, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

They may not have known Falk would have done that (or could they have put him up to it by suggesting it?), but they may simply have been plotting and waiting for an opportunity and seized the chance given by Falk. If Falk had not done so, things might have gone differently with perhaps 1st Fleet and 11th Fleet clashing or some other more prolonged struggle instead of the swift sudden "clean" coup that actually took place. Iracundus 00:45, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Where the hell was the 1st Fleet the whole time during the civil war, anyway? Vympel 03:47, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I was under the assumption it was still based on Heinessen, but was held in reserve when the 11th Fleet was sortied, and never got the chance to sortie when Yang destroyed the Artemis Necklace. By then Greenhill and company realized that Yang had the indisputable upper hand, since his fleet was already mobilized, and any attempt to mobilize the 1st Fleet would have resulted in him striking it before it was ready. Of course, since as far as I know, we don't see Paeta seated among the officers of the NSMC, there's a chance that the 1st Fleet didn't join the coup at all and most of its officers were arrested or otherwise detained. The one092001 17:43, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

That never quite made sense to me. But thats okay. In almost every long-term story, there are elements that don't quite make sense because of later-established canon, things that the author either forget or glossed over. LOGH is no exception. Here, for instance, it makes little sense that the 1st Fleet - loyal to Kubersly at least to an extent, and dedicated to peace within the Alliance - wouldn't have aided the 13th Fleet during the civil war. Heck, the 1st Fleet, I think, is barely mentionned. Its a plothole, perhaps designed to make Yang look like he was the sole hope for democracy in the Alliance. I mean, lets face it, if the 1st Fleet HAD stopped the 11th and killed the rebellion, it wouldn't quite have been the same momentum. FPA Forever

One possibility is the 1st Fleet's senior officers were surprised and detained, and then the rest of the 1st Fleet's ships interned, rather than destroyed. The NSMC may have wanted to eventually persuade the 1st Fleet's personnel to eventually side with them, and thereby gain the use of another fleet rather than blowing it up. After the destruction of the 11th Fleet, there is a comment by the narrator I believe that the NSMC had lost its mobile forces, which means that wherever the 1st Fleet was, it wasn't available to the NSMC. Iracundus 00:12, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, it does seem that especially in port, the crews would not be aboard ship, and could thus be prevented from reaching the ships if the NSMC was able to seize the spaceport. They all seem to maintain residences and barracks planetside. Plus, I doubt Paeta would have the decisive nature to have rallied the 1st Fleet against the coup. If the 11th Fleet sided with the mutiny immediately, they'd likely have the element of surprise to seize the 1st Fleet's ships before they were aware that anything was happening. The one092001 03:33, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but wouldn't that mean that the 11th Fleet would have taken and absorbed those ships? 13,000 vs 13,000 would have become 26,000 vs 13,000, a much more difficult fight for Yang. FPA Forever

Not possible if you don't have the crew to man the ships. If the crew of the 1st Fleet are detained planetside, with the majority not immediately siding with the NSMC, then where is the NSMC going to dig up the trained personnel in such a short amount of time? Iracundus 04:44, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. I don't think the NSMC had enough men to spare to crew the 1st Fleet to full capacity, as well as maintain order on Heinessen, and detain the actual 1st Fleet crews. Plus, even if they had the manpower, they'd have to organize 13,000 ships' worth of new crews, get them assigned, and then get them acquainted with their responsibilities. The NSMC also clearly thought the 11th Fleet was sufficient because they hoped to ambush Yang, and were likely trying to get the 1st Fleet crewed anyway to at least some extent as a reserve force, but never had the time before Yang deposed them. The coup didn't last that long, and although the NSMC would likely have found enough men to crew the 1st Fleet again if they had the time, Yang threw a wrench in those plans. The one092001 08:16, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

The NSMC was in power for a grand total of 6 months. I hardly think that sufficient time to find enough new skilled manpower to crew the 1st Fleet. Furthermore these would be new raw recruits. Iracundus 11:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Still, wouldn't that mean that Paeta and the majority of his people would have been felt, by the NSMC, as being potentially too loyal to the established government? That makes me wonder how many favoured the NSMC, how many favoured Yang, and how many stayed on the fence within the military forces. We know the 11th Fleet generally favoured the NSMC, as did a sizeable chunk of the Heinessen land forces (although, to what extent is unknown) and military forces on at least four other main Alliance worlds. Yang had the support of the 13th Fleet and the Iserlohn Garrison. Other units seemed to have moved neither for nor against the Coup. As far as I'm concerned, the NSMC had the greater numbers on paper, but without the 1st Fleet and without the other units scattered around the Alliance, was equal spacy-wise. This worked against them when Yang used his experienced fleet and talented officers - as well as his strategic genius and the element of surprise - to completely crush the 11th Fleet. From then on, its like Yang having total air superiority. He had pretty much won after Doria, as Bagdash stated. This is likely when units that were on the fence, seeing which way the wind blew, offered belated support to Yang, effectively giving him the majority of the remaining forces not on Heinessen. Still, the 1st Fleet never being mentionned was weird. FPA Forever

At the time, it seems that Greenhill was the highest-ranking officer after Kubersly was incapacitated. He was already a headquarters staff officer, and Lobos' chief of staff during the invasion. Even if Bewcock had not been arrested, he would have been lower on the seniority list, and more importantly, lacked an actual fleet command after the 5th Fleet was disbanded and its crews presumably dispersed. Amidst all of the reorganizing going on in the Star Fleet after the defeat of the invasion, Greenhill's authority likely won him a decent number of converts, while others weren't willing to commit until he seemed more like a winner. The one092001 19:31, 12 February 2012 (UTC)