Talk:Nobility
From Gineipaedia, the Legend of Galactic Heroes wiki
Contents |
Separate or combined?
Are we going to have separate articles for these different factions of the nobility? We have one for High Nobles, but i had figured we could just redirect that to this page, the same way we redirect Fezzan Corridor to Navigation corridors? ♥ kine @ 14:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- ?? I brought this up earlier. I thought you had moved things into different pages? Originally, High nobles/nobles/reformer nobles were all one page. Canary 14:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Did i really? Maybe i was drunk :(
- Do you prefer them all together as well then? ♥ kine @ 14:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, I prefer them merged. I think, in general, logh is such a rich setting that we are going to have (and already have) a whole lot of pages, so the simpler we keep things, the better.
Military service
I vaguely recall this was either mentioned in an episode or written somewhere, but I don't remember where. Were the nobility exempt from military conscription that the common Imperial citizens had to do? —Goldenbaum Loyalist 22:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
- In HBSHBL: 'Candidate for Succeeding a Count's Family', Kircheis talks to Martin Bufholtz, and that is where the information about the mandatory military service of 2 years for commoners comes from. I cannot offhand recall a specific source explicitly saying the nobles were exempt. Things like Grand Duke Herbert including drinking friends among his military advisors suggest however 2 possibilities. The first is that maybe nobles were exempt from the mandatory service. Grand Duke Herbert's initial enjoyment of playing "soldier" seems to suggest this first option though it is not conclusive evidence. The second is they were not exempt but they got safe and easy jobs far from the front lines. Iracundus 01:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Princes
Just as a note, and my own nitpick with the subs, the title of "Prince" (皇子, as in son of an emperor) actually is never used in the series to the best of my knowledge. The title Crown Prince (皇太子) does get used for the designated heir. The only known instances of the title Grand Duke (大公) all seem to be held by sons of the Kaiser. Grand Duke Herbert, Grand Duke Clementz, Grand Duke (in addition to his Crown Prince title) Richard etc... I wonder whether it is a de facto title for any princes in the Goldenbaum dynasty. Iracundus 03:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- Perhaps. For example, in East Slavic history, the title of Grand Duke and Prince/Grand Prince are often used interchangeably. In the Russian Empire the sons of the the Tsar were given the title of Veliky Knyaz, which can be translated as either Grand Duke or Grand Prince (although the latter is more accurate). —Goldenbaum Loyalist 17:02, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
Imperial noble ranks
Adccording to the German nobility system,
侯爵 (koushaku) must be translated to Fürst (Prince of...). It cannot be traslated as Markgraf (Marquis) which is just a form of Graf (Count). There is no tradition of promoting a Graf to a Markgraf (because it is the equal rank). If some Graf to be promoted, they will get promotion to Fürst, like German chancellor Otto von Bismarck.
Also in Japanese language, they have translated Fürst as 侯爵. For example, "Fürst von Bismarck" has been translated as ビスマルク侯爵.
Someone claimed that 侯爵 can be translated as Markgraf, that is wrong. The Japanese has translated Markgraf as 辺境伯 (henkyou-haku). WalkerEmp 09:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
- That might be true in German, but in Gineipaedia, English naming conventions take precedence over German, so 侯爵 would be translated as "Marquis" and not "Fürst". Glacierfairy 05:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
- Even the Gineipaedia take English naming over German, 侯爵 still should be translated as "Prince" (Fürst) not "Marquis" (Markgraf). WalkerEmp 19:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
- No, what I meant was that English translations of the Japanese titles take precedence over German translations of the Japanese titles. Glacierfairy 01:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
- No,侯爵 is a direct copy of the Chinese nobility system and is translated as Marquis, not Prince. Prince as in sons of a king are 王子. Princes as in independent rulers of a principality are translated as 王, and "king" is a more appropriate translation. Neither of these describe the rank of 侯爵 which is the 2nd highest noble title, a step below 公爵. Iracundus 02:18, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
- This topic concerns German, Japanese and English. It have nothing to do with Chinese in the first place. I may give you another example: "Fürst zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst" has been translated ホーエンローエ＝シリングスフュルスト侯爵 in Japanese, and Prince of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst in English. That's why I say "侯爵" should be translated "Prince" in English.
- The German Dukes (Herzog) has dignity = British Prince of Wales, the German Feudal Princes (Fürst) has dignity = British Dukes, the German Counts (Graf) has dignity = British Earls. WalkerEmp 22:52, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
- No, it has everything to do with the Chinese noble system because that is both what Japan's system and the Galactic Empire's is based off of. The Galactic Empire superficial Germanic trappings aside is Imperial China. 侯爵 remains Marquis. Dukes remain 公爵 and the original name and titles show this to be the case such as for Grand Duke Herbert. Iracundus 08:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
- The Galactic Imperial nobility is adapted from Germanic one. In the original novel, Annerose's title is clearly written in Katakana グラフィン・フォン・グリューネワルト (Gräfin von Grünewald) in Chapter 3 act II. It is the original proof that nobility system in LOGH is the Germanic one, not Chinese. Now let's talk about Grand Duke (大公), this one is also slightly mistranslated. 大公 can be translated both Grand Duke and Archduke, but the "Archduke" will be more accurate in this case, because in the Habsburg's Holy Roman Imperial court, sons of Kaisers held this title. WalkerEmp 14:46, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
- It still shows that 公爵 is Duke which is what you tried to contest, which is wrong. Quibbling over Archduke vs Grand Duke is also pointless as the two terms are synonymous but Herbert is clearly titled as Grand Duke in the hard coded original subs so that is what it will remain. The current titles stand and that is final. Iracundus 19:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not contesting anything about Grand Duke, this one is just my point of view. As you said, the original wrote Grand Duke, then it must be so.
- Back to the main topic, you keep ignoring the importiant points and keep pressing you own assumption about your Chinese things, which lack of ORIGINAL SOURCE. You avoided mention about the fact that "Fürst" has been translated "侯爵" and "Prince", and ingnoring the fact that Annerose's title is written "Gräfin" in Katanaka. I don't mind if you will keep proposing about the Chinese, but at least say something about those facts. WalkerEmp 13:18, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
- 侯爵 translates as Marquis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess). Gräfin or Graf translates as 伯爵 in both Chinese and Japanese systems or Count (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count) which is a middling rank below 侯, which has always historically in Asia been a high rank, 2nd only to Duke. Littenheim's rivalry and resentment towards Braunschweig is due to being 2nd highest noble in the Empire, not by being some mediocre middle rank noble . That is also part of the reason why Braunschweig and Flegel resent Reinhard and his sister. They resent them being granted what in their view is a ridiculously high rank, i.e. the 2nd highest. That is lost if it is 伯爵. Iracundus 22:00, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
- I have already said that German Marquis (Markgraf) and German Count (Graf) are equal ranks in the Germanic system. German Fürst and British Marquis are using the same Kanji 侯爵, but its dignity is not equal.
Dignity Non-Germanic titles Germanic titles 1 Prince of... (公) Herzog (公爵) 2 Duke (公爵) Fürst (侯爵) 3 Marquis (侯爵) - 4 Earl (伯爵) Graf (伯爵) (including Markgraf-Marquis 辺境伯) 5 Viscount (子爵) - 6 Baron (男爵) Freiherr (男爵)
- As you can see, whether Non-Germanic or Germanic. 侯爵 is still one level below 公爵 (Duke). WalkerEmp 15:35, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
- Good, so you admit then it is Duke Braunschweig. 大公 is Grand Duke, therefore 公 is Duke. Done. End of Discussion. Iracundus 19:56, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? At the very beginning, I've NEVER denied 公 as Duke. What makes you think that way. WalkerEmp 23:37, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
