Talk:Yang Wen-li

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Yang Wan-Li

So I was reading some random book today that referenced a poet from the Song Dynasty (c. 12th century CE) named Yang Wan-Li, or Yang Wanli. Sounds familiar? I wonder, do you think this could be the inspiration for Yang Wen-li's name?

I'm not sure how reliable the Chinese name variations are (I'd feel more confident about the characters used in, say, a translation of the novels) but the only ideograph they share is "Yang." I know nothing about Chinese so I've no idea whether or not the "li" bit would use the same character if it was a direct homage. For quick reference, here's the Chinese for Yang Wenli followed by the Chinese for Yang Wanli:

楊威利 楊萬里

The English Wikipedia page doesn't have a lot of information, but it does state that Yang Wen-li's often dealt with, "the annoyances and pleasures of everyday life." Which would, at face value, appear to parallel Yang Wen-li's character nicely. Thoughts? Canary

Well, 楊萬里 is indeed very similar to Tanaka's intended name of 楊文里 for Yang (the difference, of course, lies in the middle character). And considering that Tanaka is well-versed in Chinese history, it is not inconceivable that he is aware of Yang Wan-li. However, as far as I can gather, Tanaka did not actually have a single model for Yang Wen-li, so it may be just a coincidence. Glacierfairy 13:40, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Chinese name

Question: do we follow the official Chinese translation of Yang Wen-li's name, 楊威利, which is displayed currently in the page, or do we follow the author Tanaka Yoshiki's intended choice 楊文里? Personally, I prefer the latter as its actual pronunciation in Mandarin Chinese matches that of the English pronunciation, that is, Yang Wen Li, whereas the former is pronounced as Yang Wei Li. The different character-usage for the name is acknowledged in both the Chinese and Japanese wikipedias. The issue with name translations apparently plagued Chinese translators as well since all names are in katakana initially and the author did not provide the kanji for even the Chinese characters of the cast (in the case of Yang Wen-li, the author only showed his name choice in a Q&A session). — Glacierfairy

The only names we should consider for article titles and bodies are the ones shown in the latest accessible version of the Japanese anime subtitles (currently we use the Nemesis DVD rips since the BD rips we've found have them removed). The only situations where we should use different names are:

1. when the subject does not appear in the anime, but only in the manga/novels/games (currently we have no articles like this);
2. when the subject appears in the anime, but its name is only given in the manga/novels/games (like Admiral); and
3. when listing or discussion name variations in the Apocrypha, Background information, and Name variations sections

So... i would actually ask that we get the Chinese out of the first paragraph and put it in Name variations (with the proper formatting), and then down there you can also list the alternative Chinese name you mentioned. If you have a way to cite it you might mention it in Background information as well.

Is that reasonable?  ♥ kine @ 20:59, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it should be reasonable. I will use "Chinese novel translation" for the first name and "alternate Chinese translation" for the second name, for lack of a better formatting term. Glacierfairy 21:56, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I strongly disagree on this particular point. The official Chinese subtitle on the Japanese DVDs is 楊威利 and is what is used throughout the Chinese internet and novel translations. We are using the anime as higher canon. In the novels there was no liquid hydrometal for Iserlohn, yet we mention it in the wiki, therefore there is no reason why were are suddenly then putting novel preferences above the anime canon. Author Q&A is not official and is like an author or director in a commentary saying what they would have liked, but that's not the same as what was actually filmed or put in print. In thise case the author also was indecisive giving 楊文里 , 楊文理, 楊溫力. Yet the anime's subtitles are 100% consistent throughout: 楊威利. As for the name Mandarin pronunciation matching the English, well this wiki chose to use Attemborough with an "m" over the one that matches the real life English and over the katakana of the novels too. In all these examples, the anime has been taken to supercede all else so it does not make sense to suddenly make such a special case for Yang. Iracundus 01:16, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure i follow — which part are you taking exception to? If you mean the use of the phrase 'Chinese novel translation' in the Name variations section, that's no problem, i'll just correct that right now. I didn't realise there were official Chinese subtitles, let alone ones that show the names, and i'm guessing Glacierfairy might not've either.

Could you take a look at the page now and let me know if it's acceptable? Cheers  ♥ kine @ 02:15, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Well for one I think it a bit double standard to include the official Japanese katakana name in the opening blurb for Yang but not the official Chinese subtitle name for Yang (consigning it to the bottom of the page). The part I took exception to was the rejection of the official anime name 楊威利 as given in the original official Japanese DVDs sourced directly from Tokuma Shoten in Japan, which include Chinese subtitles and a Chinese dub even, in favor of trying to match Mandarin pronunciation with the English pronunciation or in favor of an author Q&A. For other things in this wiki, the anime has taken precedence, as given in the previous examples of Attemborough and the liquid metal, so Yang's name should not be an exception. The availability of the Chinese subtitles means we do have official Chinese names for any LOGH character of Chinese or Japanese descent, so we should use them not reject them. Iracundus 02:26, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

We include the original Japanese up at the top because it's a Japanese series and it's useful to have the original names. I see no particular reason to include Chinese at the top, though, because it's a 'third-party' language (for lack of a better term) — neither our own (English) nor the original (Japanese) — and i would apply the same standard to Italian or Spanish or whatever else, and if LOGH ever sees official translations into those languages we will. I definitely support including any official names (Chinese or otherwise) in the articles' Name variations sections, of course, and also creating redirects from them (e.g. 楊威利 –> Yang Wen-li).

(For reference, this convention was borrowed largely from Bulbapedia — you can see they do name translations in a very similar manner.)

I guess i could sort of see a point in limiting it to characters of Chinese descent, but i don't know if that's appropriate either, because even the characters in the series with Japanese names use kana exclusively. That suggests to me that those should be considered the 'true' spellings, and anything else is just a translation/transliteration.

If you feel strongly about it, could you create a post on our Policy talk page so we can all vote on it? I'd like to limit policy discussions to a few places rather than have them spread out throughout the whole site. :)

As far as the 楊威利 vs 楊文里 thing, i agree that 楊文里 should not be considered 'official' if it's not used in the anime. We can still mention it if it is indeed used by the author, but it should be limited to the sections mentioned above.  ♥ kine @ 02:48, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I am only advocating listing of the Chinese subtitle name for those characters clearly of Chinese descent, such as Yang Wen-li, Lin Pao, Fang Tchewling, and Ulanhu. This is more than a purely academic issue since we see in the 3rd Battle of Tiamat Gaiden, Ulanhu with a pennant with the Chinese character 马, or horse, showing that the Chinese character system is still in use to some extent in the LOGH era. Iracundus 03:02, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

K, that's fair. I've responded on policy talk — anyone else who wants to join in, please see link above  ♥ kine @ 03:48, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

"Ulanf" is a name of Mongolian origin not chinese. Almael 19:05, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

There are few wars between good and evil: most are between one good and another good.

In what episode did he say that quote? Thanks in advance. Tribunal 18:56, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I can't find that exact quote in the animated series (apparently it appears in the original novels somewhere between episodes 16-17 in chronological terms) but I found a similar quote by Yang in episode 78 (19:00) where he said to Julian "If there are such things as absolute good and absolute evil like there are in TV dramas, I wonder how simple human lives would be". Hope this helps! Glacierfairy 20:58, 21 March 2013 (UTC)