Talk:13th Fleet

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Revision as of 21:21, 26 September 2011

Yang's rank

Sorry but fleet command rank always starts with the rank of Commodore which is equal to one star general. The major FPA fleets are commanded by Rear Admirals which is 3 star general or an army Corps in today's terms. So under circumstances even a Vice Admiral is eligible. Besides it depends on the ranks of his subordinates than some tradition. As a rule there should be no more than one person with the same rank for each military arm under his command. So in theory one Army, one Air corps, and one naval officer could hold the same rank and still be under his command. Almael 19:45, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know where you get this stuff, honestly. One of the goals of Gineipaedia is to base as much of our data as reasonably possible off of information that is explicitly presented in the series (as opposed to based on speculation or irrelevant real-world analogy). And the information in the series explicitly states the following (from CA's DVD rips):

Sithole: By the way, Rear Admiral Yang...

Yang: A promotion?

Sithole: Yes. And you'll be reassigned. I want you to assume the office of Commander of the 13th Fleet.

Yang: Isn't fleet commander a post for a Vice Admiral ?

Greenhill: It's a fleet that supplements recruits with the troops who survived at Astate. 6,400 ships, about 700,000 personnel. It's about half the usual number, you see.

This, and the fact that every single numbered Alliance fleet in the series (except this one) is commanded by a vice admiral or admiral (Paetta, Pastolle, Bewcock, Moore, Ulanhu, Legrange, Morton, and Carlsen) directly contradicts what you're suggesting here. I can't recall any indication given in the series that supports the idea that fleet command is ever given to commodores, let alone 'always'.  ♥ kine @ 04:22, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, Commodores and Rear Admirals don't command "full" fleets - only sub-units of larger fleets. Full fleet command begins at Vice Admiral. In this way, Reinhard as a Commodore commanded several hundred ships of Vice Admiral Grimmelshausen's fleet at Van-Fleet, and as a Rear Admiral, 2,000 ships at 6th Iserlohn. By way of further example, Rear Admiral Eihendorf and Rear Admiral Patricken commanded sub-units of the Kempff Fleet. Vympel 09:44, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

This is common convention and does apply within LoGH. In the dialog Yang referred to the 13th fleet, there is no reason for him to refer to any fleet in general. Why otherwise do you think are other flagships around like for Attenborough, Marino, or the other lesser ranks? Or find any dialog where Yang tells Attenborough and co. where he refers to their unit with any word. Let's see what we get. Note Attenborough was commodore when he commanded a fleet under Yang. I don't remember any lower rank commanding more than one ship. The only other naval unit is a squadron. So by definition if it's not a ship, a squadron then it's fleet. ;)

It's your understanding of military units or the level of organisation that's confusing you. Let's take the army example again, since we don't have fleet organisation of this complexty in our world. A Corps consists of several Division each commanded by two star generals. (Special forces are special in regards to ranks) The next lower level is a regiment or brigade with one star general, hence brigadier general. These are the lowest strategic unit. In our case that would equal a fleet for all purposes. As you can see size can vary despite same ranking. Almael 20:08, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I remembered a dead sure method to check this. :D Anyone (FPA) who wears a pin with yellow band on his/her left breast is a fleet commander. Almael 20:26, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I think everyone agrees that there are organisational units commanded by lower-ranking officers. And naturally their ships are considered flagships, since those officers are all flag officers (commodore on up). The only time i specifically recall the series referring to these units by name is in the subtitles for Marino's, which calls it 'マリノ分艦隊' — literally 'Marino sub-fleet'. That indicates a clear distinction from the 'full' fleets (just '艦隊').

From the context and the numbers given by Greenhill (which correspond with the actual numbers of 'full' fleets), it's clear that they're referring specifically to the latter, and that's what the bit in this article refers to as well.

As far as the proper name for the 'sub-fleets' like Marino's and Attenborough's, we seem to have decided on 'squadron' as the appropriate translation, by analogy with the modern naval term for the largest sub-unit of a 'fleet'  ♥ kine @ 20:55, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, full fleet in terms of the main/numbered fleets. You could do the same reference for any kind of full-units. It doesn't necessary have to be fixed to the word or definition of fleet which by itself isn't clearly defined. Army/Air Corps are also numbered. Just a different level of organization. The problem is there is no word for a "higher level" fleet. Otherwise we wouldn't have to ponder about this. And btw. the definition of flag officer is supposed to be on fleet command level. There are two kinds of officers, ones that have a fighting command and ones that don't. The pin reference is a dead sure thing, reserved for ones having a fighting command e.g. a fleet.

In my Seikai project we call sub-fleet = partial-fleet(half-fleet). These are (basic) fleets that can make up bigger fleets of any sizes. Partial fleets are made up of squadrons, squadrons of flights(half-squadron). The difference between a fleet and a squadron is that a fleet is a strategic unit and a squadron is a tactical unit. In our world, a squadron is usually commanded by the most senior captain of the group. It's unusual for a flag officer to command a squadron, but in smaller navies it's not like there is another choice. Squadrons aren't independent like a fleet, they have no support ships like supply ships, they need a base. If a fleet is like a company then a squadron is like a squad. A squadron can be an escort "fleet"/squadron or local defense "fleet"/squadron exactly as in LoGH. Among other reasons I don't think Marino commands a squadron. If he commands a squadron I don't think he is even allowed to take part in fleet staff meeting. Simple as that. Almael 02:32, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

If it's simply an issue of organisational terminology that we need to change, i would vote for calling them either 'contingents' (Marino Contingent) or 'sub-fleets' (Marino Sub-fleet); 'Marino Partial Fleet' just doesn't sound very good to me in English.

For reference, past discussion of that issue took place on Talk:Triglav  ♥ kine @ 13:01, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

They should remain squadron since it is an accepted naval term, rather than invent clunky terms. How things are done in other fictional universes is not relevant to LOGH. Nor should the current organizational systems be considered to always be fixed in stone. How things are done over time changes as societies and militaries change. We know clearly and unambiguously the kanji characters 准将 and 少将 translate to commodore and rear admiral respectively. We also clearly see how the system works in LOGH, due to the vast numbers of ships. We see Reinhard gains no independent command until he reaches 少将, and before was just a sub-unit of the Grimmelshausen fleet. The characters of Yang's Fleet are an outlier to the existing FPA system, given how Yang's Fleet is of unusual size and is not one of the standard numbered fleets. Edwin Fischer and Dusty Attenborough both reach ranks where they should have been eligible for fleets of their own, but they remain essentially in command of large sub-units of Yang's Fleet, just as how Mittermeyer had a whole stable of lesser Imperial officers when he was High Admiral, still essentially commanding sub-units of the Mittermeyer Fleet. Furthermore Yang's Fleet is known for organizational irregularities so it is hardly a reliable representative example. Even so we see other minor officers in their staff meetings, showing there are further sub-unit commanders. Marino is just the most prominent of them. The rank pin is just that, showing rank. I see no further implications other than that.

In short, I disagree with any attempt to try to use other fictional universes or straight comparisons to how things are done currently in real life to then judge the anime as "doing things wrong". How things are done in each era and each fictional universe can vary, and we should take the LOGH universe as what it is, with the anime as the prime canonical work. Where there is conflict or discrepancy, then these should at the very least come from other LOGH sources, not out of universe sources or simple personal opinions of how things "should" be based on current real life. Iracundus 13:26, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree of course, everything we do should be derived directly from the series, except where we need to look — carefully — at real life to determine translations (like the names of ranks, since we obviously can't use the Japanese ones). I think it was just a question of terminology, whether 'squadron' is the appropriate translation/analogy for '分艦隊'. Since a majority of us seem to agree that it is, i'm of course happy to keep it that way  ♥ kine @ 21:21, 26 September 2011 (UTC)