Talk:13th Fleet

From Gineipaedia, the Legend of Galactic Heroes wiki

Yang's rank

Sorry but fleet command rank always starts with the rank of Commodore which is equal to one star general. The major FPA fleets are commanded by Rear Admirals which is 3 star general or an army Corps in today's terms. So under circumstances even a Vice Admiral is eligible. Besides it depends on the ranks of his subordinates than some tradition. As a rule there should be no more than one person with the same rank for each military arm under his command. So in theory one Army, one Air corps, and one naval officer could hold the same rank and still be under his command. Almael 19:45, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know where you get this stuff, honestly. One of the goals of Gineipaedia is to base as much of our data as reasonably possible off of information that is explicitly presented in the series (as opposed to based on speculation or irrelevant real-world analogy). And the information in the series explicitly states the following (from CA's DVD rips):

Sithole: By the way, Rear Admiral Yang...

Yang: A promotion?

Sithole: Yes. And you'll be reassigned. I want you to assume the office of Commander of the 13th Fleet.

Yang: Isn't fleet commander a post for a Vice Admiral ?

Greenhill: It's a fleet that supplements recruits with the troops who survived at Astate. 6,400 ships, about 700,000 personnel. It's about half the usual number, you see.

This, and the fact that every single numbered Alliance fleet in the series (except this one) is commanded by a vice admiral or admiral (Paetta, Pastolle, Bewcock, Moore, Ulanhu, Legrange, Morton, and Carlsen) directly contradicts what you're suggesting here. I can't recall any indication given in the series that supports the idea that fleet command is ever given to commodores, let alone 'always'.  ♥ kine @ 04:22, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, Commodores and Rear Admirals don't command "full" fleets - only sub-units of larger fleets. Full fleet command begins at Vice Admiral. In this way, Reinhard as a Commodore commanded several hundred ships of Vice Admiral Grimmelshausen's fleet at Van-Fleet, and as a Rear Admiral, 2,000 ships at 6th Iserlohn. By way of further example, Rear Admiral Eihendorf and Rear Admiral Patricken commanded sub-units of the Kempff Fleet. Vympel 09:44, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

This is common convention and does apply within LoGH. In the dialog Yang referred to the 13th fleet, there is no reason for him to refer to any fleet in general. Why otherwise do you think are other flagships around like for Attenborough, Marino, or the other lesser ranks? Or find any dialog where Yang tells Attenborough and co. where he refers to their unit with any word. Let's see what we get. Note Attenborough was commodore when he commanded a fleet under Yang. I don't remember any lower rank commanding more than one ship. The only other naval unit is a squadron. So by definition if it's not a ship, a squadron then it's fleet. ;)

It's your understanding of military units or the level of organisation that's confusing you. Let's take the army example again, since we don't have fleet organisation of this complexty in our world. A Corps consists of several Division each commanded by two star generals. (Special forces are special in regards to ranks) The next lower level is a regiment or brigade with one star general, hence brigadier general. These are the lowest strategic unit. In our case that would equal a fleet for all purposes. As you can see size can vary despite same ranking. Almael 20:08, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I remembered a dead sure method to check this. :D Anyone (FPA) who wears a pin with yellow band on his/her left breast is a fleet commander. Almael 20:26, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I think everyone agrees that there are organisational units commanded by lower-ranking officers. And naturally their ships are considered flagships, since those officers are all flag officers (commodore on up). The only time i specifically recall the series referring to these units by name is in the subtitles for Marino's, which calls it 'マリノ分艦隊' — literally 'Marino sub-fleet'. That indicates a clear distinction from the 'full' fleets (just '艦隊').

From the context and the numbers given by Greenhill (which correspond with the actual numbers of 'full' fleets), it's clear that they're referring specifically to the latter, and that's what the bit in this article refers to as well.

As far as the proper name for the 'sub-fleets' like Marino's and Attenborough's, we seem to have decided on 'squadron' as the appropriate translation, by analogy with the modern naval term for the largest sub-unit of a 'fleet'  ♥ kine @ 20:55, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, full fleet in terms of the main/numbered fleets. You could do the same reference for any kind of full-units. It doesn't necessary have to be fixed to the word or definition of fleet which by itself isn't clearly defined. Army/Air Corps are also numbered. Just a different level of organization. The problem is there is no word for a "higher level" fleet. Otherwise we wouldn't have to ponder about this. And btw. the definition of flag officer is supposed to be on fleet command level. There are two kinds of officers, ones that have a fighting command and ones that don't. The pin reference is a dead sure thing, reserved for ones having a fighting command e.g. a fleet.

In my Seikai project we call sub-fleet = partial-fleet(half-fleet). These are (basic) fleets that can make up bigger fleets of any sizes. Partial fleets are made up of squadrons, squadrons of flights(half-squadron). The difference between a fleet and a squadron is that a fleet is a strategic unit and a squadron is a tactical unit. In our world, a squadron is usually commanded by the most senior captain of the group. It's unusual for a flag officer to command a squadron, but in smaller navies it's not like there is another choice. Squadrons aren't independent like a fleet, they have no support ships like supply ships, they need a base. If a fleet is like a company then a squadron is like a squad. A squadron can be an escort "fleet"/squadron or local defense "fleet"/squadron exactly as in LoGH. Among other reasons I don't think Marino commands a squadron. If he commands a squadron I don't think he is even allowed to take part in fleet staff meeting. Simple as that. Almael 02:32, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

If it's simply an issue of organisational terminology that we need to change, i would vote for calling them either 'contingents' (Marino Contingent) or 'sub-fleets' (Marino Sub-fleet); 'Marino Partial Fleet' just doesn't sound very good to me in English.

For reference, past discussion of that issue took place on Talk:Triglav  ♥ kine @ 13:01, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

They should remain squadron since it is an accepted naval term, rather than invent clunky terms. How things are done in other fictional universes is not relevant to LOGH. Nor should the current organizational systems be considered to always be fixed in stone. How things are done over time changes as societies and militaries change. We know clearly and unambiguously the kanji characters 准将 and 少将 translate to commodore and rear admiral respectively. We also clearly see how the system works in LOGH, due to the vast numbers of ships. We see Reinhard gains no independent command until he reaches 少将, and before was just a sub-unit of the Grimmelshausen fleet. The characters of Yang's Fleet are an outlier to the existing FPA system, given how Yang's Fleet is of unusual size and is not one of the standard numbered fleets. Edwin Fischer and Dusty Attenborough both reach ranks where they should have been eligible for fleets of their own, but they remain essentially in command of large sub-units of Yang's Fleet, just as how Mittermeyer had a whole stable of lesser Imperial officers when he was High Admiral, still essentially commanding sub-units of the Mittermeyer Fleet. Furthermore Yang's Fleet is known for organizational irregularities so it is hardly a reliable representative example. Even so we see other minor officers in their staff meetings, showing there are further sub-unit commanders. Marino is just the most prominent of them. The rank pin is just that, showing rank. I see no further implications other than that.

In short, I disagree with any attempt to try to use other fictional universes or straight comparisons to how things are done currently in real life to then judge the anime as "doing things wrong". How things are done in each era and each fictional universe can vary, and we should take the LOGH universe as what it is, with the anime as the prime canonical work. Where there is conflict or discrepancy, then these should at the very least come from other LOGH sources, not out of universe sources or simple personal opinions of how things "should" be based on current real life. Iracundus 13:26, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree of course, everything we do should be derived directly from the series, except where we need to look — carefully — at real life to determine translations (like the names of ranks, since we obviously can't use the Japanese ones). I think it was just a question of terminology, whether 'squadron' is the appropriate translation/analogy for '分艦隊'. Since a majority of us seem to agree that it is, i'm of course happy to keep it that way  ♥ kine @ 21:21, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

There is a thing called chain of command. Even if you are a unit commander you still got higher ups. And when you are a direct part of some higher ups command you are bound to his command. It doesn't matter what kind of unit you command or what rank you have, here. And since none of them are send out to independent mission they are all under direct command of their superiors. The same goes for Reuenthal or Mittemeyer when Reinhard is around. So in my analogy the numbered fleets are like corps with several divisions. Actually, now that I think about it we do have this system albeit more like in war times. For example the 2,4,6,7th fleets consists of 2-4 carrier battle groups, but usually there is only one active while the rest is at port, maintenance or exercise before relieving a BG. I doubt anyone wouldn't call a BG a fleet. Anyway, one thing you may not realize is that a squadron or contingent is not an existing unit within a fleet. They form according to the situation like telling someone to take this and that ship and do this and that. It's not a rank pin, it's an affiliation or job pin. In this case signifying the carrier as commanding a lot of ships.

Without a basis in the real world it would be no scifi but fantasy. So even if there are different universes as long as the use the same language then the same term and understanding applies, although, the detailed definition may vary. Aside from the listed reasons above, you have to consider the huge fleets of ships in LoGH. There is no reason for a Commodore to command a low level unit such as a squadron. Especially since there are not many in the FPA :

"そして現在は平凡な准将、とは言えない。彼は同盟全軍を通じて一六名しかいない二〇代の将官のひとりなのである。" "in the entire Alliance armed forces there were only sixteen officers of commodore rank or higher" I doubt one of these commands one of the numerous possible squadrons. Almael 17:23, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Well like i said, it's just a matter of terminology. The chain of command itself is relatively well understood i think. The only question is, what do you do with the term 分艦隊? Do you translate it to the closest real-life English military term, or do you just make something up?

For what it's worth, the most common use of 分艦隊 on the Japanese Wikipedia (and the Japanese Internet as a whole) seems to be in reference to various American submarine divisions, which are WWII-era organisational units that evidently are no longer in use. They consisted of a small number of submarines (like two) and were constituents of a larger squadron of submarines, which the modern US Navy still has today and are typically commanded by a captain with the title of commodore. (The US Navy no longer has an actual rank of commodore.)

It also notes that the Japanese Navy did not have 分艦隊 units of its own, so the term is often synonymous with 戦隊 (which literally means squadron).

By the way, your translation of that quote seems inaccurate (i'm not an expert but it looks to me like it's saying that the number of commodores+admirals is potentially in the 20s), and even when adjusted for that it still seems doubtful. I've just counted the naval flag officers who participated in the invasion of the Empire and there are at least 21 identified on screen (2 fleet admirals, 2 admirals, 9 vice admirals, 7 rear admirals, 1 or 2 commodores), and judging by the ranks of some of the characters who appear in the Battle of Doria there must be more than that.

And that doesn't even take into account the fact that your quote refers to their entire military (not just the navy), which would include Schönkopf and presumably numerous others (since it's suggested later in the series that they have army divisions, and those are commanded by generals)

Perhaps your source is only indicating there are 16 to 20-ish named flag officers at a given time?  ♥ kine @ 05:09, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

We don't even know what source that line is supposedly from. Also it is actually directly contradicted by the anime. If you do a visual count, you already exceed 16 people. In episode 12, you have the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 13th fleet commanders plus Lobos, Greenhill, Sithole, Konev, Birolinen, Cazerne, all with rank pips on their collar of Commodore or higher rank or direct Japanese subtitles showing their rank. That's 13 right there. During episode 15, we see Fischer, Chen, Connally for another 3, again with rank pips visually confirmed. That's 16. In episode 19, we see Kubersly and Dawson for another 2, bringing the total to 18. We also know Legrange as commander of the 11th Fleet (he wouldn't have just suddenly ascended from below Commodore rank). Total is 19 already. That is before we even start going into the likely candidates such as the unnamed officer with Appleton with the red square on chest indicating a Chief of Staff role, which given other precedents in other numbered fleets is also likely to be of Commodore or higher rank. Further, this is already discounting the destroyed 2nd, 4th, and 6th Fleets, which would have further increased the count, even prior to the formation of the 13th Fleet. Iracundus 05:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

The 20 is referred to their age. This has been taken from novel vol1 chapter 1 (translation from 1996) when Yang got promoted and explaining the significance of his rank. Based on the age curves & favorable for older generation there shouldn't be more than 3-4x total. Roughly every system has about one squadron, there should be about ~200 squadrons around. Even if only half, it's still more, and after all the majority of officers works in bureau or bases not command some ships or even groups of ships.

The most obvious fact is that in the novels, the anime and the official books the word "戦隊"=squadron is being used pretty much from the beginning. Mostly every time the FPA gather for new fleets. So the question is why use "分艦隊" for squadron when there is already "戦隊" being used? The best solution is to leave it as sub-fleet. Sub refers to any sub-unit of a unit (ignoring any size definition) so it's always true in any military force. Almael 20:47, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I notice the claim has shifted now from saying there are 16 officers of Commodore rank and higher to saying there are 3-4x that number. However the novel's statement of saying Yang was one of 16 officers of Commodore rank in their 20's does not allow one to say how many Commodores and above there are or how many ships they command. It only means that there were few officers that reached such rank in their 20's. "Based on the age curves & favorable for older generation there shouldn't be more than 3-4x total" sounds like speculative hand-waving and making things up and once again claiming what things "should" be, rather than having canonical concrete evidence for what things actually are. Iracundus 00:56, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

The first number is of course of the best of the best people, hence, the one eligible for fleet command. The second is only to answer your question why there are more. Well, consider some more if you want. Naturally, most are some staff officers with no fighting command, hence, don't really count, while the older ones hold the higher commands. The young and new ones of course get the lowest command, again more relevant for the discussion of squadrons. But if you want all irrelevant details: (taken from average us forces 2004) Officer 17-20: 0.2% 21-24: 9.5% 25-29: 22.6% 30-29: 40.5% 40+: 27.2% the exact ranks are secret of course. As you see there is a relation of 1:9 for all officers in the age range we are looking for. However, since higher ranks get rarer you can average it over the whole range and it becomes 1:5 at max. Almael 03:57, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

We have no indication that it is only the best of the best that are eligible for fleet command and that other factors are not involved. The incompetence of commanders such as the 4th and 6th fleet commanders is case in point. Second, the use of U.S. rank distributions in 2004 is utterly irrelevant with regard to an interstellar navy centuries in the future that has vessels and personnel in numbers vastly exceeding any navy on Earth today, and on a constant war footing for over a century. As stated earlier by Kine "One of the goals of Gineipaedia is to base as much of our data as reasonably possible off of information that is explicitly presented in the series (as opposed to based on speculation or irrelevant real-world analogy)." What you repeatedly engage in is such irrelevant speculation based on real-world analogies or assumptions and then trying to state such speculation as if it were established fact. It isn't. Such fan speculation is completely irrelevant and invalid as evidence when it comes to making definitive statements about the LOGH universe. Iracundus 04:20, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

If they aren't the best then they wouldn't get promote early. People will stay people regardless of era or age. So the relativeness of kinds of people stays the same regardless of educational level or type of society. It has been like this since ancient times there is no reason to believe there will be a change. Besides if people would change than everything regarding character design within LoGH would be wrong. Also, I brought up all the real world analogies because you brought up irrelevant considerations. I didn't start with any speculations, I did state the possible inconsistancy brought up by the staff (squadron), as well as the speculation of inappropriateness of Yank's low rank. So it was the fan statement at Gineipedea to begin with I was pointing out not the other way around. Almael 19:03, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Discussion of command structure aside, i am most interested in your claim that 戦隊 is already used for other things in the series. I don't tend to notice these things unless i'm looking for them, so that is news to me, and certainly relevant to this discussion. Could you possibly locate some examples of this? (I prefer anime examples, since it is our primary source, but novel ones are better than nothing i guess.)  ♥ kine @ 23:51, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

(LOGH: 'New Trends') at the end;(LOGH: 'Fortress vs Fortress') beginning; (LOGH: 'The Cold Spell Arrives') at 13:00; (LOGH: 'To El Facil') at 6:20; (LOGH: 'The Edict of the Winter Rose Garden') beginning; Novel #1c7pt3 c10pt1; Novel #2,Novel #4, Novel #5, Novel #9, Novel #10, Gaiden Novel #2, Gaiden Novel #3. Almael 19:03, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I split your post up so we can sort of keep these two lines of discussion separate, hope you don't mind. Anyway, thanks for the citations, let me check those and i'll get back to you with further thoughts  ♥ kine @ 19:43, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

No problem. I forgot to list the Data Book example: Leonidas' history entry. Almael 20:01, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

The Databook Leonidas entry uses 分艦隊, not 戦隊 (which does not appear at all in the entry). I am looking at it directly on page 124. Also now I have checked (LOGH: 'The Cold Spell Arrives') at 13:00, where the 14th and 15th Fleets are being formed, and there is no use of the phrase 戦隊 in the Japanese audio nor in the Chinese subtitles. There is 警備隊 but that translates to more like "guard squadron" or "garrison squadron". I have also checked (LOGH: 'To El Facil') at 6:20 where Murai, Fischer, and Patrichev are being talked to, but again there is no use of 戦隊 in the dialogue nor in the subtitles. That's 3 of the supposed sources checked directly and none of them actually use the phrase 戦隊 in any form. As for the other supposed episode sources, provide times as simply saying "beginning" is inadequate citation for verification purposes.Iracundus 00:32, 3 October 2011 (UTC)~

Then perhaps you should revert your interpretation in the entry. There was no need to give times for the first and last scene. Almael 19:04, 25 October 2011 (UTC)