Talk:Reinhard von Lohengramm

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Revision as of 14:19, 5 November 2013

Name translation

I'll be altering this bit in a moment. Here it is (from apocrypha:bi) "[br]Lohengramm is a mistranslation7misspelling of Lohengrin, the epos of Richard Wagner about the grail-knight of the same name."

General rule of thumb: let's try to keep assumptions to an absolute minimum.

Translated literally, "Lohengramm" means, well, nothing. If we remove an "m" we get "Lohen" and "Gram." Meaning, literally, "blazing grief." Which does fit Reinhard's character quite well. HOWEVER, Reinhard is often referred to as the Golden Lion, and his dynasty is called the Golden Lion Dynasty--or in German, Goldenloewe. So it's entirely possible that, rather than "Lowengramm," his name was supposed to be something more like "Loewegram."

Of course, "Loewengram" (useing "oe" short for o w/ umlauts, btw) would be "Sorrowful Lions" (plural). Which, in katakana, would be written exactly the same as Lohengramm. Canary 01:06, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the Löwengram theory pans out, for two reasons:

1. It would only be written the same if you were pronouncing the word the English way, but in German of course the w is a /v/ sound.

2. They've already demonstrated that their preferred transliteration of löwe is ルーヴェ, which is quite different of course from the ローエ in Lohengramm.

I agree with the original assumption. It is of course still an assumption, and should be qualified with a likely or may be, but given the points above and the enormous number of Wagner references in the series i think Ockham's razor is on the side of this one  ♥ kine @ 22:39, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

You have to consider that japanese authors like to do wordplays, so just because there is an alternative meaning it doesn't mean that's what is the real thing. Besides Dynasties have always been named after family/clan names not some coat of arms. The only historical naming that refers to coats of arms was the "war of the roses". Almael 08:19, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Quotes

Two items: 1. Should we impose a limit? (There are an awful lot here, already....) 2. Should we use quotation marks? (I had thought "yes," and I had thought I'd added them, but I don't see them here). Canary 01:12, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Some Trivia

Not sure if this is worth adding to the article itself so I'll leave up to debate here. Reinhard is similar to Alexander The Great in a number of ways;

• Both have blonde hair.
• Had a best friend/lover in the same force.
• Both conquered all of the known world.
• Both died from disease at a young age.
• Both use offensive tactics.

Sioraf 22:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Parallels to Alexander the Great are already mentioned in the article. Scroll down to the background information section at the bottom of the page and you can see it. =) Glacierfairy 00:18, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Premier or Prime Minister

The question is in the title. Was Reinhard the Premier or Prime Minister? I remember they said he held the office of Prime Minister, but in practice someone in a position of absolute power under a Kaiser or Kaiserine is referred to as Premier, or is that another mistranslation? Strayor 23:58, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The term used to refer to Lichtenlade (whose job Reinhard took) is 国務尚書. 国務 means 'state', as in 国務長官 secretary of state (which is how the CA subtitles often — but not always — refer to him), but rather than the typical word for secretary or minister they use more old-fashioned characters that i don't fully understand. It is also seen in the titles shown for all of the high-up Imperial-style government officials throughout the series, including Ehrenberg (軍務尚書), Gerlach (財務尚書), Bruckdorf, Silberberch, Remscheid's ministers-in-exile, and i believe, eventually, Hilde.

Judging by the context, i would probably translate it therefore as 'chief minister', possibly 'Imperial minister', or 'chancellor' (in the sense of Chancellor of the Exchequer, not Chancellor of Germany). Iracundus would have more insight on it i'm sure. So anyway a literal translation is probably something similar to 'minister of state'.

However, in 'Farewell, Distant Memories', the German(-ish) subtitles refer to Lichtenlade as the 'Premierminister', which is indeed the German word for 'prime minister'.

The only subtitles i could find for Reinhard's title after he comes into power (but before he becomes kaiser) are in 'First Battle': 帝国宰相兼帝国最高司令官, imperial Prime Minister and Imperial Supreme Commander. However, i am unsure of the connotations of 宰相. It sounds like, from the Japanese Wikipedia article, that 宰相 has a particular connotation for being subordinate to a monarch, whilst 首相 is perhaps more typically used for the common meaning of 'prime minister' (as in the prime minister of Canada or whatever). It is used to refer to the historical office of Chancellor in China, but not to the Chancellor of Germany for example.

All of this is to say, i do not know which translation to pick.  ♥ kine @ 09:34, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

宰相 (in Chinese at least, not sure whether it translates over to Japanese as well) has strong imperial connotations, since it was the most used title for Prime Ministers (or Chancellors, depending on translation choice) in Imperial China. The term 首相 was invented later in history and is now the preferred term used to translate prime ministers of monarchies today; prime ministers of republics are typically translated as 总理 in Chinese. In the case of Reinhard, I'd say either Prime Minister or Premier could work as a translation for his title. As for Lichtenlade, I am pretty sure he was meant to be just the Minister of State, which made me think of an interesting parallel between this period of the Galactic Empire and Ming Dynasty China, since the position of Chancellor (宰相) was suspended very early during the dynasty since the emperor feared his prime minister gaining too much power and I daresay the same applies to the Empire. So in effect Reinhard was resurrecting an ancient position which no one actually held during the late Goldenbaum Dynasty! Glacierfairy 11:52, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

国務尚書 is derived from names for governmental organizations during Imperial China. I refer you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chancellor_of_Tang_Dynasty and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chancellor_of_China where "In the Tang Dynasty, the government was divided into three departments: the Department of State Affairs (尚書省), the Chancellery (門下省) and the Secretariat (中書省) and the head of each department was generally referred to as the Chancellor". 宰相 is Prime Minister and again has strong Imperial China connotations, and is even higher in power, basically as head of the government and subordinate solely to the emperor. This post was abolished early in the Ming precisely because historically it was a dangerous position as the Prime Minister position was often a position of de facto control of the throne in case of a weak emperor or this was a stepping stone to usurping the throne. Reinhard's title shows the unification of both the civil administration and military powers in one person, clearly giving connotations that he is de facto ruler of the Empire and likely soon to take the throne. Iracundus 12:44, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

The complexities of the Eastern languages are completely lost on me, but thank you for the explanation. But now I feel more confused, of course, as the times I distinctly remember the translations mentioning a Premier, it was always in reference to Lichtenlade, and I was just carrying over the term to use with Reinhard. I am in no way qualified to suggest this, and it is probably stupid that I even say this, but is there any chance that there could be a difference of the terms used in Japanese for Imperial Prime(chief) Minister and an Imperial Prime(chief) Minister that holds all true power within a empire or nation? Strayor 12:47, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Considering that Imperial Japanese government positions were initially a straight copy of Tang dynasty government positions, and that the author is known for his references to Chinese history, I do not think so. The problem is that Western government post translations do not map precisely onto Imperial Chinese government positions, which themselves changed titles at times over the dynasties. The role of 宰相 has also at times been nebulous. The main difference is that 国務尚書 is still lesser to 宰相 which has connotations of full plenipotentiary powers. Now there is one famous exception to this that I can think of offhand which is Li Shimin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Shimin) who held the position of 尚書令 and de facto head of the executive bureau, but he was effectively de facto 宰相 (which did not exist in that form in the Tang) and Crown Prince. Anyway, if I had to do this translation for LOGH, I would put 国務尚書 as Chancellor and 宰相 as Prime Minister, with the implied understanding that the latter is more powerful than the former. Again the difficulty is that this connotation is easily lost on audiences. Iracundus 13:00, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

So, for example, Lichtenlade was Chancellor 国務尚書 until Friedrich IV's death, after which he became Prime Minister 宰相? Does this mean that Reinhard was 尚書令? What would that translation be for that if he was? Strayor 13:08, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Lictenlade remained 国務尚書 even after Friedrich IV's death, possibly to avoid causing even greater uproar beyond that caused by him still staying on in the position. Reinhard was Chief Commander of the Space Fleet. So one was head of the civil administration and the other the head of the military. As far as I can determine there was no 宰相 previously. Reinhard's assumption of that role after removing Lichtenlade is basically even greater consolidation of governmental power into himself as he is taking in name a title even higher than Chancellor. In practice, there may be little difference but it is again in the connotation and title. Reinhard basically over time sheds more and more of the pretense and assumes more of the names associated with real power. Iracundus 13:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

So what would be the translation of 尚書令 and how many positions did that entail? I just am not sure how Reinhard could hold any more power under Catherine. I'm probably not understanding the premise here and for that I apologize, but if 国務尚書 is Chancellor, and 宰相 is Prime Minister, then 尚書令 would be the de facto head of the executive branch of government. So how was Reinhard limited to 宰相, even if it is a position of tremendous power, when he was unchecked by anyone when after he took power? Is that not 尚書令 when you are the monarch in all but name? Strayor 14:01, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

尚書令 was a single position and head of the 尚書省 or executive bureau in Tang dynasty China. This position does not exist in the Galactic Empire. But 尚書令 would have been equivalent roughly to 国務尚書, in technicality. 尚書令 historically became almost equivalent to 宰相 due to a particular incident when the Crown Prince of Tang China took the position and was basically de facto head of government, even though technically this was not the role of the position. In any case, the point later was moot since 尚書令 subsequently became a permanently vacant position for the rest of the dynasty after the Crown Prince became emperor.

The main difference between 国務尚書 and 宰相 is the connotation. 宰相 carries with it more prestige, connotations of almost unlimited power second only to the emperor. 国務尚書 (Lichtenlade's position) might have been functionally been almost the same as Reinhard's later 宰相 position but the title is different and doesn't have the same connotations of stepping stone to taking the throne or rendering the emperor a figurehead. Iracundus 14:14, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Alright. Thanks for walking me through that. I think I understand now. 尚書令 was a Crown Prince that acted and Emperor before being crowned himself? Strayor 14:19, 5 November 2013 (UTC)